kinder, gentler boot camp, WTF?

[TrophyHusband 0]

the marines have the best military bearing, the most respect for their superior, and are very proud of who they are and what they do. they are the embodiment of what the military should be. all soldiers, sailors, and airmen could benefit from a good solid foundation that the marines could build.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[ExAFO 0]

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the marines have the best military bearing, the most respect for their superior, and are very proud of who they are and what they do. they are the embodiment of what the military should be. all soldiers, sailors, and airmen could benefit from a good solid foundation that the marines could build.

All unsubstantiated opinion, lacking anything other than marketing propaganda, and utterly unquantifiable.

Tell all that nonsense to a USAF Fighter Pilot, an Army Green Beret, a Navy Seabee, or a Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer, and you'd rightly be told to go fuck yourself.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[popsjumper 2]

You're focusing on the Marines as a group while the point is the training program which is very good with respect to preparing a person for military duty.

Other advanced, individual training programs go one step further.

This training program not benefiting other services?
Hmmmm... the shot-down pilot may benefit, the ship-wrecked sailor may benefit, the over-run cook may benefit....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[livendive 8]

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the marines have the best military bearing, the most respect for their superior, and are very proud of who they are and what they do. they are the embodiment of what the military should be. all soldiers, sailors, and airmen could benefit from a good solid foundation that the marines could build.

They are a sub-set of the Navy. You think they are the be-all, end-all of the military when they can't even earn their own independent branch of service? They're like the Coast Guard!

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnRich 4]

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the marines have the best military bearing, the most respect for their superior, and are very proud of who they are and what they do. they are the embodiment of what the military should be. all soldiers, sailors, and airmen could benefit from a good solid foundation that the marines could build.

Tell all that nonsense to a USAF Fighter Pilot, an Army Green Beret, a Navy Seabee, or a Coast Guard Rescue Swimmer, and you'd rightly be told to go fuck yourself.

Just look at what you're doing: you are comparing the cream of the crop from the other branches, with the average Marine. That kind of says something all by itself.

Try comparing average soldiers, sailors or airmen, with average Marines. The difference is noticeable. I spent some time once, as a young Marine, at Army and Air Force bases in South Korea. I was shocked to see many servicemen there with beer guts. The Marines just don't have anyone in that state of fitness.

[JohnRich 4]

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They are a sub-set of the Navy. You think they are the be-all, end-all of the military when they can't even earn their own independent branch of service? They're like the Coast Guard!

I double dog dare you to pronounce that in a bar near a Marine Corps base.

[JohnRich 4]

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Naval infantry is not the end-all of military force.

It is unless you're going to attack Canada or Mexico. Otherwise, you've got to go by sea to get there.

[livendive 8]

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They are a sub-set of the Navy. You think they are the be-all, end-all of the military when they can't even earn their own independent branch of service? They're like the Coast Guard!

I double dog dare you to pronounce that in a bar near a Marine Corps base.

Having spent my time in the amphib Navy, I assure you I've given and taken my share of face-to-face good-natured USN-USMC ribbing. I've also been in my fair share of bar fights with them. They're fun to play with either way.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Naval infantry is not the end-all of military force.

It is unless you're going to attack Canada or Mexico. Otherwise, you've got to go by sea to get there.

How does the Army get there?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[JohnRich 4]

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How does the Army get there?

The personnel get there in the Air Force's airplanes. That's after the Marines have secured the beachhead, and the Navy has shipped in all their heavy equipment.

[ExAFO 0]

Unless someone is still in, or has been in within the past 3 or 4 years, one's notion of reality in the armed forces is going to be terribly innacurate.

Fuckit, I don't have a dog in this fight anymore. I pull the same bennies as the other services' vets, and other than that, I don't give much of a shit. It was something I did, not something I was. I never wanted the mindfuck that seems to be part and parcel to some of the other branches.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[wmw999 2,589]

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I'd rather weed them out now, as opposed to having the brutally Darwinian process that is war do it for them. It makes for bad PR.

There, in a nutshell, is the reason why it shouldn't be too easy.

We're preparing the vast majority of new recruits to stand in the line of fire, put their friends in the line of fire, react quickly and appropriately under fire. That is stressful. Not everyone is going to be the guy driving the truck stateside.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TrophyHusband 0]

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Unless someone is still in, or has been in within the past 3 or 4 years, one's notion of reality in the armed forces is going to be terribly innacurate.

so in the 8 years since i've been in, the navy has no more overweight personnel, airforce nco's are respectful of officers, and marines have grown big guts and look like shit in uniform? bullshit. my wife is an officer in the airforce so i'm a little closer to things than the average civilian, but you still don't have to be in to see these things.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[happythoughts 0]

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that means that they should be in very good physical shape, know how to wear a uniform and look good wearing it, and respect superiors.

On the civilian side, we used to have to wear long-sleeve shirts and ties to work. It never translated to work performance, merely discomfort.

A lot of what exists as training is left over from old methods. Example - close order drill - teaches someone to obey rapidly without question.

Some of the old methods are actually brainwashing techniques. Remove the basis for self-esteem and replace it with new values and goals.

"You may be a college graduate, but if you can't do (insert skill), you can't save your life."

While that may have been true 50 years ago, a person launching a cruise missile on a Navy ship would be better trained if they studied that, instead of riflery.

I am just saying that boot camp should focus on the actual combat skills of the particular service.

A Navy tech who has been through finals week in college on 4 hours sleep a night will have the valid mental stress skills to do their job.

Combat infantry focuses on their particular scenarios.
Other branches of the armed forces should train for theirs.

[Gawain 0]

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i just saw on the news a piece about the army's new boot camp. they've done away with most of the yelling and have gone to corporate strategies such as "team building" and "mentoring". this is all to increase the success rate of recruits because the army is barely meeting or coming under their recruiting goals. the problem i have with this is that i believe it will create a weaker army. some recruits should be weeded out. boot camp needs to be a high stress environment in which people learn to perform in tense situations. i'm curious to hear the opinions of people who are in the army.

I saw this news bit too. Notice how they didn't mention anything about Ft. Benning where the Infantry is trained? I'm pretty sure that the leading edge of the army will not lose its edge in the process. Hell, I think they should make it tougher!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[warpedskydiver 0]

You seem to miss the entire point of basic training.

No matter what your job is you had better learn to fight just like everyone else does, just in case the shit hits the fan.

There are many examples in the past of men who distinguished themselves in battle even though their MOS may have been that of a cook, chaplain, or truck driver, etc.

[jenfly00 0]

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Naval infantry is not the end-all of military force.

It is unless you're going to attack Canada or Mexico. Otherwise, you've got to go by sea to get there.

Should I go get a ruler ...or are you guys just gonna poke your dicks at eachother and see who wins??

-----------------------
"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[TrophyHusband 0]

i agree with you when it comes to a person's specific job within the military, but that training comes after boot camp, aka basic training. what i'm saying is that all members of the military need to meet certain standards. that is why i suggested a 2 phase boot camp. phase 1 would be general military training to include physical readiness, ucmj, learning to identify ranks of all services, military protocal, and in general learning to stand tall and proud to serve your country. phase 2 would be branch specific basic training. as far as teaching someone to obey rapidly without question, it is sometimes necessary. in a combat situation, questioning your oic or co can get you and everybody around you killed. remember that the military is not like the civilian world.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[metalslug 36]

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Seriously, I always thought that the psychology of ANY induction regime was to break the recruits previously held values and then to build new values. You will be called "Useless" in your first few weeks regardless of how well you perform, and over the ensuing weeks, the instructors gradually show that they value you by relaxing and becoming more approachable. It's a proven way of inducing BOTH pride & discipline.
Mike.

"Do you think you can dissect me with this blunt little tool ?".
Military psychology is obvious and predictable and that is why it fails on many people.
I did a year of compulsory military service. Did it induce discipline? Yes, for as long as I was there at least. Did it induce pride? Not a chance.
The lasting impression left on me is that, in a battle situation, my life could be dependent on the strategy decisions of a neanderthal who had endured the same brainwash during his training that they were now attempting on me.

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The disapointment of failure and learning that your best simply was not enough is the greatest character builder a kid can have.

It is ?
How about: "Quitters never win. Winners never quit. But those who never quit and never win are idiots."
For a person to persist under the perception that even their best efforts will not help amounts to masochistic behaviour. How can that be a great character builder ?

I'm in favour of tough physical training and I do understand the need for a team-orientated mindset in combat, but IMO the current military psychology is becoming old-school and needs a modern rethink. Not softer, not easier, but 'logicaly honest' enough to motivate more resilient minds.

A few years ago, a story was leaked to the press about our national rugby team that attended a team-building training camp that became infamously known as "Kamp Staaldraad" (Barbed-wire Camp).
It was explained that the team had undergone team-building training under supervision of a police Task Force commander. Leaked video material showed, amongst other things, an entire rugby team in their birthday suits in a cold muddy pit, at night, singing songs.
The incident became a local fiasco and rugby administrators were the laughing stock of the country for a while. Why was this incident such a closely guarded secret and why was it so embarrassing when it leaked?
Could it be because the modern thinking of first-world nations cannot fathom the benefits of that kind of training? ...and can you?

[Guest]

What I'm seeing as a result of the changed doctrines of training is the next logical step in specialization; id est:

1. Everybody goes through basic. The main purpose for it is indoctrination. There are ways of training people without the Prussian-style brutality that has been in vogue for a couple of centuries.

2. Elaborate and harsh training isn't necessary for the majority of troops, who will go into mostly non-combat support jobs. Only about 3% of the US Army is out on the pointy end of the spear. The rest are spear carriers who provide support for the ones who actually do the fighting.

3. Training dollars are better spent in the field, where the specialists will actually learn their trade. Elaborate, realistic combat-style training is expensive, and is best reserved for those who can make the best use of it; e.g., infantrymen.

4. A soldier who is injured in basic is an expensive loss, especially if they're separated as a result. Troops can be indoctrinated and brought up to fitness standards without a lot of harsh PT.

5. The Army has done away with the "100-day Wonder" replacement soldier process that was so notorious during the Vietnam era (and you can thank that braying jackass, Macnamara and his egghead punks for that shit), and rotates entire units in and out of the hot zones. This makes for much better unit cohesion; i.e., everybody knows everybody.

When I was in mountaineering school, I pushed myself harder than I even had in my 36 year-old life, and graduated with a climb up Mt Baker in WA state (~10,000 ft.).

I succeeded because I was part of a team, and was mentored by the leadership. There were times I wanted to quit, but the instructors got me through; not by hollering at me, but by setting an example, helping me to master the necessary skills, and encouraging me to stay with it. My teammates helped me, and when they were having a hard time, I encouraged and helped them.

If you've ever seen video about BUDS (the Navy's basic school for SEAL and UDT / Frogman candidates), you will notice that the instructors don't yell at the trainees (although they do use bullhorns to make themselves heard). They'll heckle them some, and they'll taunt them, but they'll also encourage them, and tell them again and again to work as a team and help each other succeed.

The SAS used to be really harsh with all the yelling, swearing and brutality, but they gave it up in favor of the team & mentoring approach.

That is real leadership, and it in turn produces strong, confident troops, who will also be leaders when their time comes.

I don't think anyone could disagree that the SAS are some of the finest, most professional soldiers on Earth.

The US Army is on the right track by adapting smarter methods of training the troops, and I see nothing wrong with it. The "Lord of the Flies" approach only produces people who will only do what they are told and no more. The team & mentoring approach produces people who will think, and take the initiative when it's needed.

edit for spelling

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Richards 0]

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The disapointment of failure and learning that your best simply was not enough is the greatest character builder a kid can have.

It is ?
How about: "Quitters never win. Winners never quit. But those who never quit and never win are idiots."
For a person to persist under the perception that even their best efforts will not help amounts to masochistic behaviour. How can that be a great character builder ?

I'm in favour of tough physical training and I do understand the need for a team-orientated mindset in combat, but IMO the current military psychology is becoming old-school and needs a modern rethink. Not softer, not easier, but 'logicaly honest' enough to motivate more resilient minds.

A few years ago, a story was leaked to the press about our national rugby team that attended a team-building training camp that became infamously known as "Kamp Staaldraad" (Barbed-wire Camp).
It was explained that the team had undergone team-building training under supervision of a police Task Force commander. Leaked video material showed, amongst other things, an entire rugby team in their birthday suits in a cold muddy pit, at night, singing songs.
The incident became a local fiasco and rugby administrators were the laughing stock of the country for a while. Why was this incident such a closely guarded secret and why was it so embarrassing when it leaked?
Could it be because the modern thinking of first-world nations cannot fathom the benefits of that kind of training? ...and can you?

[Richards 0]

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If you've ever seen video about BUDS (the Navy's basic school for SEAL and UDT / Frogman candidates), you will notice that the instructors don't yell at the trainees (although they do use bullhorns to make themselves heard). They'll heckle them some, and they'll taunt them, but they'll also encourage them, and tell them again and again to work as a team and help each other succeed.

The SAS used to be really harsh with all the yelling, swearing and brutality, but they gave it up in favor of the team & mentoring approach.

That is real leadership, and it in turn produces strong, confident troops, who will also be leaders when their time comes.

I don't think anyone could disagree that the SAS are some of the finest, most professional soldiers on Earth.

In fairness I have no experience/knowledge with special operations and my lack of knowledge may be evident in my question but....can you the apply training philosophy used for highly motivated self starters who are already switched on individuals to raw recruits who three weeks ago were lounging on mom & dads couch eating doritos and playing x-box?

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[briguy 0]

Trophyhusband, aside from your wife's air force officer combat stories, what is your military experience?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[TrophyHusband 0]

i hope you are right and i'm wrong.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[TrophyHusband 0]

where did i claim my wife had combat stories? i spent 6 years enlisted in the navy during the clinton years.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com