Arguements against Gay marriage/Civil Unions

[Nightingale 0]

My guess would be that you feel it's wrong because it's not something you're used to. I think that you feel in your gut that relationships like that are wrong because relationships like that are wrong for you.

If I'm guessing correctly, I understand where you're coming from. Ten years ago, I was abstractly okay with the idea of gay relationship. It was something that showed up on TV once in a while and got mentioned in the newspaper. I had no first-hand knowledge of homosexuality, but I felt that people had the right to love who they loved, and that gender didn't matter. However, the first time I saw two guys kissing, it totally weirded me out. I had to take a step back emotionally and look at why it bothered me, and I came to the conclusion that it was simply that it was something I'd never seen before. I realized I was having the same emotional reaction that I had to the guys with tongue piercings and mohawk hair. It was different and, because it wasn't something I wanted to do, I didn't understand why anyone else would.

Because seeing two guys kissing was something I'd never seen before, I had the typical human reaction to change and became unsettled by it. I had to step back and think about the situation rationally instead of emotionally, and I realized that just because I formed relationships with people of the opposite gender does not mean that someone else can't have just as meaningful and strong a relationship with someone of the same gender. Just because someone else's relationship is different from my relationship that doesn't make their feelings any less valid.

Now, seeing people of the same sex kissing isn't unusual, and it doesn't bother me at all. It was just time and exposure that made me comfortable with it.

[ROK 0]

You have very valid points and you are correct to a large degree. The problem is that in order for people to do the things that you've spoken of, they didn't need your approval.

In order for Gay people to marry, it may indeed need the approval of the majority. To approve of something we need to understand it, and accept it (usually).

I really feel for those who are fighting to change anti-gay views. If I were told to vote, for the first time in my life I'd have a very difficult time making a decision.

[Nightingale 0]

Well, I was trying to draw a comparison between my feelings about gay relationships in general and many people's reactions about gay marriage specifically. I think most of the non-religious resistance comes from a discomfort that a gay relationship is somehow different from their own, and discomfort with that difference, real or imagined.

[ROK 0]

Yes, your comparisons were good points for me to analyze my thoughts and feelings, but is there something deeper, something almost Darwinian (sp) in our belief structure? Are we being driven to improve our species in a subconscious way? I beleive that many of our thoughts, actions, and feelings are driven by natures ingrained quest for survival.

Have you ever come to a place where you feel a certain way, and can't come up with a good explanation why?

[Nightingale 0]

I think there's always an explanation for how we feel. That explanation is not always rational, however. It is often emotional, and not always beneficial to us in any way.

Personally, I used to have an incredible phobia of dogs. Even a little chihuahua anywhere near me would have me screaming. I had no idea why I had this fear, but the feelings were very real. I did find out eventually what it was that had given me the phobia, and it wasn't the actions of the dog that caused it; I'd been too little to remember the incident, but I did remember the emotions.

That fear had me walking on the other side of the street if a dog was behind a fence on one side, refusing to go over to friends' homes because they had a dog. That fear, while completely real, wasn't rational. There was no logical reason for me to believe my friend's sweet little sheltie was going to hurt me. I eventually got over the fear by being exposed to dogs repeatedly, a little bit at a time, until my rational mind was able to overrule the irrational, emotional fear.

It took repeated, consistent exposure to what I was afraid of to make me realize that what I feared (in this case physical injury) was not going to happen.

I think something similar will eventually happen with gay marriage. Like any irrational fear, people are seeing a threat where a threat doesn't exist, and it takes exposure to what's scaring them for them to realize that what they fear is not going to come to pass. As more and more homosexual people feel comfortable bringing their relationships out into the open, when seeing homosexual couples kissing in public isn't unusual, and as more states begin giving domestic partner/civil union options, people will begin to realize that these relationships pose no threat to their own lives and families. Society isn't going to collapse and the family structure isn't going to be destroyed.

Families aren't always a mother, father, and kids. The idea of a "traditional family" really isn't all that common anymore. Families include step relatives, adoptees, fosters, half siblings, grandparents, aunts and uncles, domestic partners, and multiple households (and probably more that I can't think of right now). "Family" has become more of an acknowledgment of relationship and responsibility rather than a reference to a traditional structure.

[Trae 1]

phew this discussion is really getting at it.good on yas..

In a truly caring tolerant society this little thing would not be an issue. It'd be yeah right of course....go for it. (with the proviso that you don't give me your disease, addictions or infect my loved ones with twisted sick thinking .)

However most western countries can't even openly tolerate a bit of pot smoking let alone allow legal gay marriage. Where I live the pot smokers get much harsher treatment than gays who are being more and more openly accepted.

Unfortunately self righteous bullies are still running the planet squeezing it for their own narrow reasons.

I see the problem as a too heavy reliance on democracy and the rule of the supposed majority. Majorities can be created by ignoring or attacking the rights of minorities. preying upon the weaker amongst us who are afraid of not being included in the majority.

Democratic ideals may have been forward thinking 200 years ago but now majority rule is showing its limitations...if it exists at all. The whole media run spreading of supposed majority attitudes is bordering on the delusional.
We are all ourselves not some copy of an imagined majority. We all have our own likes and preferences.

What's to replace or enhance democracy??? perhaps a heavy move towards individual rights. Sure there's a place for democracy but it shouldn't overpower the rights of the individual.

We COULD with decent guidance , wisdom and information be trusted to judge what is best for ourselves. Instead we have the all powerful and stagnant majority to lead the way. The politics of the bullies and their reliance on prohibition , law enforcement and war is not the way into a truly advanced society.

No wonder most people just do what they want ... if they can.
Having our potentially beautiful lives stolen and ruined by meglomaniacal power trippers under the guise of right thinking and correct action is not a reflection of a tolerant or advanced society.

Quite the opposite.

[Nightingale 0]

Wel, I'm not certain about governmental structure elsewhere in the world (note to self: remedy that.), but here we have the constitution that is supposed to prevent tyranny of the majority. I think we run into problems when the majority allows people to ignore the constitution because it's convenient, and the leaders fail to recitfy the situtation because they're members of that majority.

[Trae 1]

The rights of the majority overpowering tha rights of minorities or individuals (tyranny of the majority ....nice ) sounds very much like some of the communist rhetoric bandied around in all those socialist countries that capitalism supposedly beat.

For me I don't fully get what the big deal is about being allowed to be free....whatever that means to different people .
Not allowing people to determine their own reality is simply CRUEL.

Why not ....
If you're gay and you want to get married .. please be happy and do so as valued members of society.
If you like smoking pot or shooting up ...here's the instruction book ... with self care included and pure substances.
You don't have to hide in the dark anymore.
If you're sick ...we know how to help you.
?????
Would that be more like a loving/caring society than the current gunpowder version of care.

What is the big threat to capitalistic 'freedom' that same sex marriages or recreational drug use provides?
I just don't get it.
Are people truly so afraid that their well brought up sons and daughters are so vulnerable to these supposedly wayward influences?

Forcing these things into the dark makes it all even more wayward...as in a self fulfilling prophesy.

Capitalism, democracy, media control whatever you want to call it is looking more and more like majority sanctioned totalitarianism ............not even close to true freedom and tolerance.

Has the free world become what it hates????

I can't wait for the day when these issues are no longer on the radar .
For a lot of us those days have already come and gone.

[Nightingale 0]

I don't get it either. I think it's coming from people being afraid/uncomfortable with what they don't understand, and because it makes them uncomfortable/afraid, they don't want to see it, so they outlaw it.

[narcimund 0]

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I don't get it either. I think it's coming from people being afraid/uncomfortable with what they don't understand, and because it makes them uncomfortable/afraid, they don't want to see it, so they outlaw it.

The funny thing is the right-wing people who do this are the same ones who scream the word "FREEDOM" the loudest.

What FREEDOM means to them is the freedom to outlaw anything they don't personally want to experience.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[skydyvr 0]

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What FREEDOM means to them is the freedom to outlaw anything they don't personally want to experience.

Nice job mis-representing all Republicans. Your disdain for them comes through very clearly.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Nightingale 0]

um... It looked to me like he was referring specifically to the people who try to legislate, not because something is harmful, but simply because they don't like it. I didn't see any reference to republicans, only to a specific group that tends to be right wing.

[narcimund 0]

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Nice job mis-representing all Republicans. Your disdain for them comes through very clearly.

Hey, if you're not that kind of right-winger then I wasn't talking about you. I'm sure there are exceptions... Surely there must be ...

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[skydyvr 0]

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Hey, if you're not that kind of right-winger then I wasn't talking about you. I'm sure there are exceptions... Surely there must be ...

Maybe I'm just not as right-wingerish as I used to be.

. . =(_8^(1)

[livendive 8]

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What FREEDOM means to them is the freedom to outlaw anything they don't personally want to experience.

Nice job mis-representing all Republicans. Your disdain for them comes through very clearly.

Funny, I didn't see the word "Republicans" anywhere in his post.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[skydyvr 0]

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Funny, I didn't see the word "Republicans" anywhere in his post.

Yes, there are different definitions for "right-winger" and "republican".

Great point.

. . =(_8^(1)

[Trae 1]

It still surprises me how a lot of the prohibition pundits (no matter what religion or political persuasion) know so little about what they prohibit.

My feeling is that this is because they have very little contact with the real thing.

Often the worst case scenarios (eg gay sexual predators , Aids or very sick drug addicts ) are used to prove that something is bad for all.

With this control through fear tactic the middle and high ground is rarely (never? ) explored .

I've known many gays who are amazingly caring people .
Likewise I've known a fair number of rec drug users who are truly caring responsible members of society including many in positions of authority.

To see these people and their attitudes marginalised by a cruel, narrow minded society makes it obvious to me which camp I'd like to stop in.

I'll take the eccentric bus over the mono-culture anyday.

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