Richards 0
QuoteMany of the problems in the US come from peoples uninvolvement with the way the country is run. They have no real vested interests or desire to become Americans. They are simply coming to take advantage of all the US has to offer financially, and to send the money they make back to their native country.
I know more foreigners who are interested in the way this country is run that actual Americans. Sorry, but I think your logic is seriously flawed and downright wrong.
Personally I am always blown away by the general apathy of the average American. Hell people hardly even vote and I know more than a few who, when they do vote, vote for a party because they 'think they are
Blues.
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
QuoteQuoteMany of the problems in the US come from peoples uninvolvement with the way the country is run. They have no real vested interests or desire to become Americans. They are simply coming to take advantage of all the US has to offer financially, and to send the money they make back to their native country.
I know more foreigners who are interested in the way this country is run that actual Americans. Sorry, but I think your logic is seriously flawed and downright wrong.
Personally I am always blown away by the general apathy of the average American. Hell people hardly even vote and I know more than a few who, when they do vote, vote for a party because they 'think they are' without any research.
Blues.
Ian
_____________________________________
Your statement is rather vague! You mention 'foreigners'. Are you referring to those people from other countries who went through the process and became citizens or those who crossed the border illegally. Those from Central America and Mexico average about a 3rd. grade education. They don't care about the way our country is 'run'. All they care about is what is here for them. Once they are 'established' here, then, it's how to get the rest of their cousins and uncles here. Those folks who go through the process of getting citizenship... sure, they are interested in our government.
Chuck
QuoteYour statement is rather vague! You mention 'foreigners'. Are you referring to those people from other countries who went through the process and became citizens or those who crossed the border illegally. Those from Central America and Mexico average about a 3rd. grade education. They don't care about the way our country is 'run'. All they care about is what is here for them. Once they are 'established' here, then, it's how to get the rest of their cousins and uncles here. Those folks who go through the process of getting citizenship... sure, they are interested in our government.
Sorry, maybe I can state it more clearly.
1) Yes there are immigrants, both legal and illegal , that are apathetic.
2) Per capita I'd venture a guess that comparing Americans vs immigrants (illegal or legal) the 'americans' (and I use that turn loosley) are far more apathetic. They're used to being handed everything or thinking that the world owes them a favor. Look around, it's a lot more pervasive than one might think. Those of us, both native and from abroad that feel passionately about this country are few and far between. For a while there I was in awe of the US after 9/11 - everyone, for the first time and in a way that I'd never seen before, pulled together. Now we're back to our good ol ways. Pity, for a brief moment there we got a glimpse of what we, as a country, could be.
3) No matter the background most people are leeches. They simply suck away at everything around them.
Basically, the jist of my post was to the quote
QuoteMany of the problems in the US come from peoples uninvolvement with the way the country is run. They have no real vested interests or desire to become Americans.
I think that's true of 70%+ of the people living in this country, regardless of origin or offical national status.
And I think it's sad.
Blues.
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
Apparently you missed the 500,000 Mexicans marching in the streets of LA, many carrying Mexican flags and chanting "Mexico..Mexico."
I do agree with you that a large percentage of US born Americans know very little about how the country runs, nor do they vote nor have any interest in politics until it affects them negatively.
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I do agree with you that a large percentage of US born Americans know very little about how the country runs, nor do they vote nor have any interest in politics until it affects them negatively.
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I'd also, have to agree with you. Too many folks concern themselves with themselves. Making a lot of money with little or no effort. (I guess, there's nothing totally wrong with that... if, you can swing it.) Folks want it 'now'. I don't care what it is... they want it now! I think too, a lot of people are driven by greed. Those folks marching in the streets are no different.
When I hear (I heard an illegal woman say this on our local news.) illegals flatly stating that, they are illegal and should be allowed to stay here simply because 'of all they had to endure to get here', is bull-shit to the enth degree! Those illegals are slapping the faces of the people who went through the 'system' to become 'legal' citizens of this country.
The illegals feel they are 'entitled' to everything this country has to offer simply because they walked across a desert or waded a river and walked countless miles. They flaunt the fact they are here and almost 'dare' us to round them up and ship them back. The damned 'bleeding hearts' out there who side with them need to get their facts straight. This country just can no longer handle the influx of tens of thousands of them that swarm into this country. They know too, they get enough over here... who's going to send them back. They are mocking us, our government. The Border Patrol missed a good opportunity to round them up, when they marched in L.A. and other cities in the U.S.
Chuck
When I hear (I heard an illegal woman say this on our local news.) illegals flatly stating that, they are illegal and should be allowed to stay here simply because 'of all they had to endure to get here', is bull-shit to the enth degree! Those illegals are slapping the faces of the people who went through the 'system' to become 'legal' citizens of this country.
The illegals feel they are 'entitled' to everything this country has to offer simply because they walked across a desert or waded a river and walked countless miles. They flaunt the fact they are here and almost 'dare' us to round them up and ship them back. The damned 'bleeding hearts' out there who side with them need to get their facts straight. This country just can no longer handle the influx of tens of thousands of them that swarm into this country. They know too, they get enough over here... who's going to send them back. They are mocking us, our government. The Border Patrol missed a good opportunity to round them up, when they marched in L.A. and other cities in the U.S.
Chuck
twibbles 0
QuoteI think EVERYONE should have to do that... to get citizenship....serve 2 years.. then you have the right to vote. More people would be invested in doing something for their country.
Hmm, i first read about that concept in Robert H Heinlein's book Starship Troopers, the only science fiction novel on the reading list at all four United States military academies.
In the book, to become voting citizens and to be eligible to be a politician, a person have to volunteer to serve in the military. But people serving in the military don't get to vote so they can't vote out of a war.
It's a pretty good book, not just a science fiction novel, but a political essay as well.
Eugene
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
twibbles 0
QuoteQuote
QuoteI think we should require all illegal immigrants to serve in Iraq for 2 years and then give them citizenship if they survive.
I think EVERYONE should have to do that... to get citizenship....serve 2 years.. then you have the right to vote. More people would be invested in doing something for their country.
Great idea. Of course, if everyone had to serve there's no way we would have gone to war in the first place.
That or we'll go to war only when it's decided that the reason is good enough to fight for.
Eugene
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
kallend 2,114
QuoteQuoteI think EVERYONE should have to do that... to get citizenship....serve 2 years.. then you have the right to vote. More people would be invested in doing something for their country.
Hmm, i first read about that concept in Robert H Heinlein's book Starship Troopers, the only science fiction novel on the reading list at all four United States military academies.
In the book, to become voting citizens and to be eligible to be a politician, a person have to volunteer to serve in the military. But people serving in the military don't get to vote so they can't vote out of a war.
It's a pretty good book, not just a science fiction novel, but a political essay as well.
Eugene
Neville Shute's book "In the Wet" (1953) introduces earned voting rights, predates Heinlein by several years, is well written and doesn't have a damn stupid plot like "Starship Troopers".
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
twibbles 0
Hmm... have to keep an eye out for that book...
Eugene
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
Eugene
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of
people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move."
mnealtx 0
Yup... how dare Heinlein write about people being proud to serve in the military or proud of their country/planet... ![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
kallend 2,114
QuoteYup... how dare Heinlein write about people being proud to serve in the military or proud of their country/planet...
He could write about whatever he wished. However, it is false to attribute to Heinlein the idea of earned voting privileges. It's not even good SciFi. At least the book is better than the truly awful movie, though.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mnealtx 0
I don't recall the original post mentioning that Heinlein was the first to come up with the idea...only that he wrote a book mentioning it....
NO argument there... I saw it on AFN, and remember thinking "so THAT'S what that whirring sound is... Heinlein spinning in his grave!"
QuoteAt least the book is better than the truly awful movie, though.
NO argument there... I saw it on AFN, and remember thinking "so THAT'S what that whirring sound is... Heinlein spinning in his grave!"
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I almost walked out of the movie, and I LOVE movies (was a film/screenwriting major). Because the movie was so incredibly bad, I never bothered to pick up the book. should I?
mnealtx 0
*I* enjoyed the book (obviously John disagrees 
...but I grew up reading Heinlein and I'm from a military family. I think you'd enjoy the story much more than the movie, if you keep an open mind reading it.
The concept of "service for suffrage" certainly isn't a new one. The general concept of it makes sense in a way - you cherish more the things you've earned; but it would never come to pass.
...but I grew up reading Heinlein and I'm from a military family. I think you'd enjoy the story much more than the movie, if you keep an open mind reading it.
The concept of "service for suffrage" certainly isn't a new one. The general concept of it makes sense in a way - you cherish more the things you've earned; but it would never come to pass.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
QuoteThe general concept of it makes sense in a way - you cherish more the things you've earned; but it would never come to pass.
Although it could become a dangerous tool... Since in most countries the head of the ruling government is also at the head of the armed forces, it would be tempting for such leader to use such service as an endoctrination tool. I believe that the armed forces should remain out of politics, and think that the temptation to politicize them would be great if people serving were the only ones with any political power once their out of duty...
"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."
we have too many restrictions about who can serve in our military for that to ever work.
mnealtx 0
It depends on what you tie the service to - think of the thread from a week or so back about the mandatory service requirement, there was a choice of military or civil service.
Also, you don't gain the franchise until after you've finished the obligation, so that would would answer the "military meritocracy" point that Nick brings up.
Also, you don't gain the franchise until after you've finished the obligation, so that would would answer the "military meritocracy" point that Nick brings up.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
billvon 3,087
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>Because the movie was so incredibly bad, I never bothered to pick
>up the book. should I?
Not the best SF book around, but it's become part of the 'foundation' for science fiction over the years - and it's much, much better than the movie.
>up the book. should I?
Not the best SF book around, but it's become part of the 'foundation' for science fiction over the years - and it's much, much better than the movie.
rehmwa 2
Quote>Because the movie was so incredibly bad, I never bothered to pick
>up the book. should I?
Not the best SF book around, but it's become part of the 'foundation' for science fiction over the years - and it's much, much better than the movie.
If you like Heinlein, it's just fine - he was more prolific than extra talented, but he put a lot of work into his Science Fiction and it pretty defines the genre. The movie was a real letdown, even with Dina Myer (sp?) and Denise Richards.
As for reading Heinlein - I highly recommend his stuff for kids under 10. Or those that like to read at that level. It's right up there with Dan Brown's stuff for actual thinking content.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
kallend 2,114
A way to cut demand...
www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_13/b3977087.htm
www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_13/b3977087.htm
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
DOH!!
Richards