Gawain 0 #1 March 28, 2006 France, unable to admit that socialism doesn't work, with an unemployment rate of 10%, and twice that amongst "younger" workers, is now under the swagger of several days of demonstrations so far. I'm curious to see if they'll see the smoke from the Mediterranean. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #2 March 28, 2006 the protesters are protesting a new law that would make france slightly LESS socialist Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,132 #3 March 28, 2006 >Paris France -- Ready to start counting burning cars again? They count only blue cars, but they also skip the cracks in the street And they ask many questions, like children often do Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #4 March 28, 2006 Maybe the idea is to burn cars and several businesses to open up employment oppertunities in the manufacture of new cars, and contruction work to rebuild the cities after they burn them to the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #5 March 28, 2006 Perhaps they'll form a new union...Union of French Socialist Republics... What a bunch of whining wussies. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #6 March 28, 2006 Quotethe protesters are protesting a new law that would make france slightly LESS socialist I think (and Gawain correct me if I'm wrong) he's saying that too much socialism creates dependency, and dependency creates a feeling of entitlement, so that if adjustments are made that reduce the ease of access to the resource upon which people have become dependent (and to which they feel they are entitled), the people will revolt. Thus, the ultimate cause of the unrest is too much socialism in the first place. Of course, he might have been saying something completely different... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #7 March 28, 2006 QuoteWhat a bunch of whining wussies. Maybe. But keep in mind that, as I just noted above, dependency creates a feeling of entitlement. Those affected would say it’s not just a feeling, it is ACTUAL entitlement. As you know, the more socialist countries have pretty high taxes, by and large. That means that people will feel that, through their taxes, they have already paid for those entitlements; they view it as part of the social contract they have with their government. And so if those entitlements are cut back, the people affected will feel that the government has reneged on its end of the contract. Imagine if someday, in the U.S., President Quayle signs a bill into law drastically reducing seniors’ Social Security benefits. I daresay the social unrest would grind Palm Beach County to a standstill. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #8 March 28, 2006 QuotePerhaps they'll form a new union...Union of French Socialist Republics... What a bunch of whining wussies. Vinnie, those youngsters surely are no "whining wussies" ... They're demonstrating in the streets against easing of dismissal protection for job beginners - not just for fun, as they have nothing better to do One could discuss if this alteration of dismissal protection law is the correct decision but, just to label these young folks simply as wussies is witless. IMHO. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #9 March 28, 2006 QuoteThey're demonstrating in the streets against easing of dismissal protection for job beginners... I never hear any details on this in the U.S. media. Is there some kind of law that says that once someone is hired, that they can't be fired? Is it impossible to fire someone who isn't performing his job? What exactly is the problem that this law is trying to change? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #10 March 28, 2006 Quotethose youngsters surely are no "whining wussies" ... They're demonstrating in the streets against easing of dismissal protection for job beginners - We understand that; but everything is relative, or at least a matter of perspective. By that I mean, ok, by French standards, the job protections may be “dismal”. But in many other countries, such as the US, no such job protections exist at all. So while the French may be offended at the reduction in protections to which they feel they are entitled, an American might say that the French should count themselves lucky they get any job protections at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 3 #11 March 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteThey're demonstrating in the streets against easing of dismissal protection for job beginners... I never hear any details on this in the U.S. media. Is there some kind of law that says that once someone is hired, that they can't be fired? Is it impossible to fire someone who isn't performing his job? What exactly is the problem that this law is trying to change? More or less. http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/03/28/france.protests/index.html Quote Under current French law, merit in the workplace has little sway. Workers cannot be easily or inexpensively fired. As a result, employers are reluctant to hire new workers, resulting in an overall French unemployment rate of 9.6 percent. The CPE would allow employers to hire and fire workers who are 26 years old and younger any time within their first two years of employment for any reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #12 March 28, 2006 QuoteQuotePerhaps they'll form a new union...Union of French Socialist Republics... What a bunch of whining wussies. Vinnie, those youngsters surely are no "whining wussies" ... They're demonstrating in the streets against easing of dismissal protection for job beginners - not just for fun, as they have nothing better to do One could discuss if this alteration of dismissal protection law is the correct decision but, just to label these young folks simply as wussies is witless. IMHO. Sh*t, come on out to California, an "At Will" state. I can quit without notice or cause, and can be fired without notice or cause. Yet, they manage to have an economy just as big..or bigger than France's.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #13 March 28, 2006 Quote>Paris France -- Ready to start counting burning cars again? They count only blue cars, but they also skip the cracks in the street And they ask many questions, like children often do They she'll say, "Tell me all your thoughts on God." So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #14 March 28, 2006 QuoteImagine if someday, in the U.S., President Quayle signs a bill for some reason nowadays, "President Quayle" no longer sounds so shocking. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #15 March 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteThey're demonstrating in the streets against easing of dismissal protection for job beginners... I never hear any details on this in the U.S. media. Is there some kind of law that says that once someone is hired, that they can't be fired? Is it impossible to fire someone who isn't performing his job? What exactly is the problem that this law is trying to change? No. The easing of that law refers to job beginners within the first 2 yrs, i. e. they might get the sack without knowing reasons, w/o any legal period of notice has to be kept ... They feel kinda defenseless. Beginners use to make mistakes, that's normal. OTOH it's also normal that some superiors are a€€holes and kick you out only b/c they dislike your face. (There are legal periods of notice, f. e. in Germany now it's 4 weeks in advance before end of next month. That depends on contracts. As I'm an oldie, my contract of employment is a little older too: I still enjoy a notice period of 3 months before end of next quarter.) One sense of easing that law in fact is: To keep the "market" open, means: A place of employment should NOT be blocked by any incapable/lazy idiot, who showed fine results in diploma but, is half-assed in practice. That also will stir up competition, only the best (strong) survive. To really judge those laws, it needs many trains of thoughts. Just to consider one is, chief's best golf partner's son needs a job after finishing his studies, his dad is arranging that with chief, chief fires just the young one sitting on that job, et voilà: Golf partner (plus son) is satiesfied and will place next order with the chief. It's surprising that you do not learn details like that in your local media. How about Google News, f.e.? Generally (here), if someone is hired, of course he could be fired. If he's shifting his fingers in company's cash: He'll be fired from one second to the next. Sure. If his job performance is lousy: Under actual law, under an notice of 4 weeks to next month' end, he's fired, this has to be satisfactorily shown by the boss. Just a small excerpt to get the general idea. Christel dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #16 March 29, 2006 Oh, I disagree entirely. These punks are enraged because under the new law they actually have to show their worth to an employer. What these whining morons don't realize is that workers do not own their jobs. Jobs do not exist for workers to fill. Jobs exist to make an employer profit. If the person filling that job does not make the position a useful one, then the employer can - and SHOULD - take the job back. These idiots are wanting the government to protect their jobs, regardless of their level of performance. idiots. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 March 29, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhat exactly is the problem that this law is trying to change? Quote Under current French law, merit in the workplace has little sway. Workers cannot be easily or inexpensively fired. As a result, employers are reluctant to hire new workers, resulting in an overall French unemployment rate of 9.6 percent. The CPE would allow employers to hire and fire workers who are 26 years old and younger any time within their first two years of employment for any reason. Thanks for that info. But it's still kind of vague, and that's all I've been able to find by reading news stories. This seems to imply that anyone who is over 26 years old, or who has been employed for at leasst two years, is guaranteed a job for the rest of his life, whether he is performing his duties or not, and whether the company likes it or not. And that sounds absurd... But hey, if you only have to work hard for two years, and then you can sit on your ass the rest of your life, do nothing, and collect a paycheck - I guess that's great for the worthless bums. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #18 March 29, 2006 QuoteThese punks are enraged because under the new law they actually have to show their worth to an employer. What these whining morons don't realize is that workers do not own their jobs. Jobs do not exist for workers to fill. Jobs exist to make an employer profit. If the person filling that job does not make the position a useful one, then the employer can - and SHOULD - take the job back. These idiots are wanting the government to protect their jobs, regardless of their level of performance. idiots. It's Socialist thinking. They believe they are entitled to jobs, regardless of whether or not they earn them or perform them properly. And they are scared to death of becoming Capitalists. Balderdash! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #19 March 29, 2006 QuoteThe CPE would allow employers to hire and fire workers who are 26 years old and younger any time within their first two years of employment for any reason. That's screwed up. What is so magical about hitting 26 that crappy performance shouldn't result in having to find another job. Pissy bandaid to a problem that would be solved by letting talent and effort dictate who gets a job. Not even considering the blatant age discrimination here. Vinny - I think the 26 and under crowd would be happy with the change. At least they get the opportunity to find a job that wouldn't be offered before. But the fix is stupid because the overall system promotes a 'take it for granted' attitude for the older people. I don't think the younger crowd is whining here. The older crowed will be as soon as the younger crowd gets in and has to work - making the leeches look bad. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #20 March 29, 2006 QuoteJobs do not exist for workers to fill. Jobs exist to make an employer profit. Actually, it's both. In order for employment to "work" , it has to be to the benefit of both the employer and the employee. If it were *just* for the employer to profit, there would be no such thing as salary. Slavery still exists in some places, and that's a much better example of a relationship designed solely to generate profit for the "employer". Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #21 March 29, 2006 QuoteBut hey, if you only have to work hard for two years, and then you can sit on your ass the rest of your life, do nothing, and collect a paycheck - I guess that's great for the worthless bums. Careful, here in the US we have a similar situation(s): 1 - Unions 2 - Litigation by people getting fired Both have a similar effect of stagnating what would normally be productive job turnover. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #22 March 29, 2006 QuoteThis seems to imply that anyone who is over 26 years old, or who has been employed for at leasst two years, is guaranteed a job for the rest of his life, whether he is performing his duties or not, and whether the company likes it or not. And that sounds absurd... I didn't read it that anyone is guaranteed a job for life, but rather that an employer must show cause for an involuntary termination. It's definitely different than we see here, but I don't get the impression it's nearly as dramatic as you're suggesting. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #23 March 29, 2006 QuoteMaybe the idea is to burn cars and several businesses to open up employment oppertunities in the manufacture of new cars, and contruction work to rebuild the cities after they burn them to the ground. Stupid fuckers! Don't them frogs know that burning cars and businesses is only considered civilized and socially acceptable when a local sports team wins a championship! "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #24 March 29, 2006 QuoteQuotethe protesters are protesting a new law that would make france slightly LESS socialist I think (and Gawain correct me if I'm wrong) he's saying that too much socialism creates dependency, and dependency creates a feeling of entitlement, so that if adjustments are made that reduce the ease of access to the resource upon which people have become dependent (and to which they feel they are entitled), the people will revolt. Thus, the ultimate cause of the unrest is too much socialism in the first place. Of course, he might have been saying something completely different... Ah, kind of similar to the gross proliferation of welfare in recent memory, then...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #25 March 29, 2006 It is not just that. Here is Spain your boss can fire you anytime he wants, but he has to write down the reason, and that will lead to one of three diferent type of situations. Unjustified: 44 days/years worked. unemployment pension. Bankrupcy: 22 days/year worked. unemployment pension. Justified. 0 days/year worked. NO unemployment. So here the way it works is that if your boss whant to get rid of you he better have a good reason or he will have to pay to the employee (tax free) 44 days of base salary for every year the employee worked for the company, and the employee will be entitled to receive a small unemployment pension for a small period of time paid by the government. Other option is that if the company is in bankrupcy that compnsation goes down to 22 days per year. The best for the company and the government is to say that it was justified so no one pays the employee anything. The french government is increasing the options for the company to fire people the "cheap way". Believe me when i tell you that firing people under the third case is being overused by the companies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
