Lucky... 0 #26 March 28, 2006 QuoteBelow is my response to your latest Bonfire post. Note to happythoughts: I agree, but that's not where popsjumper is drawing the line. QuoteWhat I support is help for those who need AND want it and freedom to choose otherwise. Simple as that. Someone who needs help is not in a position to determine whether they want it or not. It's kind of like a bipolar or schizophrenic who goes off his meds: he starts talking too fast and too incoherently or talking to the air or she takes her small children out to a construction site and collapses (this is a true story, not merely a made up example) or he decides to commit suicide by cop (another true story). A suicidal person who receives treatment against his will can always decide--when he becomes rational again--that ending his life is the right choice. And then it is a choice, not an act of desperation. Death is not undoable, but there are a lot of people walking around out there who are very grateful to be alive only because someone made decisions for them when they were not capable of making such decisions for themselves. There is a legal standard for competence. Someone who can't meet it should not have the power to make decisions about life and death. rl I'm curious what your stance is on state-sponsored execution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #27 March 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteFor those who do want to end it all...it's not my place to dictate to anyone whether they should live or not live. I am a firm believer.... tht when you know its time.. it is time. I have no desire to be kept alive with heroic measures if I am terminally ill and in severe pain. I think the people who force a life of pain and suffering on others just to assuage their own fears and dogmatic beliefs need to come to grips wiht the reality that ALL of us will die. No one gets out of this lifetime alive. I want a peaceful end to my life and a peaceful passing.... not one filled with agony because someone refuses to just let me go. I lived in Oregon at the time that the people VOTED overwhelmingly for the Right to die with dignity. That right is still being mucked with by people who SUPPOSEDLY believe in Jesus and an afterlife.. yet they feel free to deny that afterlife to others. These are the same people who demand we have state-sponsored executions...... religion/Christianity = playing God. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lucky... 0 #28 March 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteCould the ability to function in society play a key role? No...I don't think that's a good measure. For two reasons, primarily. 1. I've known people who were sitting on the edge of suicide, and who were functioning pretty well at the time. Only people in the know knew of their distress, and their desire to suicide. I've known mothers in the throws of PPD/P who were outwardly "functioning" but literally unable to cope. And I know that for myself, when I was there at the edge, I was not considered unfunctioning; most people I knew had no idea what was transpiring inside my mind. What is function, anyway? The ability to pay taxes? Then every stay-at-home mother who doesn't earn a wage then becomes "non-functioning." Being able to hold a job? Drive a car? Go to the store? Read a book? What? What if someone is completely sane, and only has their groceries delivered and lives off a trust fund and stays at home all the time? They're functioning...in their way, for their needs and choices, in a chosen lifestyle. So is that not functioning? 2. At what point does "functioning" become perjorative, as in "most people eat ice cream for dessert, therefore if you eat ice cream for dinner, you're not functioning" or something along those lines? We're right at defining normal, which I think is almost impossible to do accurately. I would suspect there are other factors, rather than "functionality", that should be the earmarkers for mental illness... Ciels- Michele Quote2. At what point does "functioning" become perjorative, as in "most people eat ice cream for dessert, therefore if you eat ice cream for dinner, you're not functioning" or something along those lines? We're right at defining normal, which I think is almost impossible to do accurately. We're being quite abstract here, aren't we? Many.most of the optional suicides will be elderly who are extemely ill. Furthermore, there will be safeguards in place to ensure these people are sure. I support a 1-year wait. Again, if these people want to do it, barring quads, they will do it publicly and dangerously (to others) if they choose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,503 #29 March 28, 2006 QuoteA suicidal person who receives treatment against his will can always decide--when he becomes rational again--that ending his life is the right choice. And then it is a choice, not an act of desperation. RL, You're gonna have to help me out here. I want to understand your point, but am having difficulty as to why desperation cannot be a factor in choice?Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #30 March 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteA suicidal person who receives treatment against his will can always decide--when he becomes rational again--that ending his life is the right choice. And then it is a choice, not an act of desperation. RL, You're gonna have to help me out here. I want to understand your point, but am having difficulty as to why desperation cannot be a factor in choice? Only for you, dude. This discussion started in the Bonfire, so please read what I had to say there: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2146909#2146909 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2146948#2146948 Perhaps that will clarify what it is I think about this, perhaps not. If it doesn't, then ask me again. I don't think desperation is rational. But that may just be semantics. I know that when my friend Troy died, it was because he measured the pain of his life against expected future improvement, saw it was futile, and opted out. I miss him, but I can't fault his logic, because things were never going to get better. I think to some extent, he was depressed--but it wasn't the kind of depression that makes one act irrationally. Given the circumstances of his life, it was not an irrational decision, but the culmination of a decision made long before. "Desperation" to me implies a spontaneous act, not an act that has been given thought or consideration. If I start to get like my grandmother, I'm goin'. There's no "maybe" about it. I've also decided the other sorts of circumstances under which I would take my own life, and if you were to ask my daughter, she will fight tooth and nail to see that if I'm not able to do it for myself, I won't be kept alive against my will. It's a long-term, thought-out process for me. On the other hand, if my thyroid goes wonky again, and I start to sink, I really do hope that someone steps in before I take final action, because it's not that I really want to be dead but because my mind has given up the claim to rational behavior. I can tell you, however, that the feelings at such times are very desperate. So I guess the answer to your question is that from personal experience, I know that desperation as a reason is not a good reason to die. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #31 March 28, 2006 Cut it out, Lucky. We're not talking about the death penalty and we're not talking about religion. If you want to argue your straw man, start another thread. In this thread, Michele is taking this (as am I) as a mental health issue. That's all. And that issue is: should a person who is not rational be allowed to take his own life? And that requires defining what "rational" is, which is what Michele is trying to do. This is an important discussion because people not only have to make a decision about their own lives but about whether to intervene in the lives of others. As I said above, if I were starting to slip, I would expect those who love me to allow me to go peacefully before I was too stupid to implement the decision, but if I were merely in the throes of a thyroid-induced depression, I would hope that someone would have the sense to intervene. And I think that's the question we have to ask about every potential suicide. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #32 March 28, 2006 Thank you, Paul You expressed my feelings to a T. You have a way with words that I do not possess.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
