Suicide - Assist or Prevent?

[popsjumper 2]

With respect to suicide prevention organizations and right-to-die organizations....What's your thoughts?

Do you prevent it at all costs?
Do you assist at all costs?
It's situational - sometimes prevent, sometimes assist?

The problem I am having is with the statement from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, "advocating for polices and legislation that can help prevent suicide..." - brings visions of Baker Act and strait jackets. Very susceptible to abuse by relatives and others using the court system.

(I'm sure the {my}bolded word in the quote is a typo on their part and that they really meant policies.)

For those who don't really want to do themselves in, I support help and assistance without the threat of forced inprisonment...be it jail or hospital.

There are other organizations offering help without advocating "policies and legislation". THOSE I do support.

For those who do want to end it all...it's not my place to dictate to anyone whether they should live or not live.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[RhondaLea 4]

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The problem I am having is with the statement from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, "advocating for polices and legislation that can help prevent suicide..." - brings visions of Baker Act and strait jackets. Very susceptible to abuse by relatives and others using the court system.

This should bring visions of dollar bills instead.

This is not about the Baker Act and straitjackets, but about legislation authorizing funding and about developing policies for grants to researchers working in this area.

You would know this if you had read a bit more.

And you've changed your xpremise from the Bonfire thread to this one.

I'm not sure what it is you're aiming for here, Andy. I totally agree that we have the right to determine our individual fates, but a depressed person is not in his right mind, and he cannot make a rational decision to end his life.

Given that, to advocate that anyone should have the right to end it is irresponsible and thoughtless, and I cannot fathom why you would (in the original thread) take such a position.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[happythoughts 0]

To use the Cliffs Notes version of the story of Pandoras Box: The woman opened the box and let out every problem of the world. After she slammed the lid shut, a small voice begged to be let out. She relented and a beautiful fairy flew out and landed on the the lid. She said, "My name is Hope".

Moral? Hope was the worst of all the curses. Hope is when a person clings to irrational wishes in the face of reality.

When their is guaranteed to be no good outcome, people should be allowed to die with dignity. Everybody draws that line, they just draw it in different places.

(Before anyone whines) Ask anyone if they would wish to continue to live if:
- They could not move their body.
- They had permanent excrutiating and constant pain.

There are circumstances where there is no hope. Those people should have choices.

[billvon 3,132]

>Ask anyone if they would wish to continue to live if:
>-They could not move their body.

Actually, that's one of the cases where doctors specifically do NOT heed a patient's wishes. Quadriplegics often want to end their lives after their accidents, but most change their minds within a year.

[RhondaLea 4]

Below is my response to your latest Bonfire post. Note to happythoughts: I agree, but that's not where popsjumper is drawing the line.

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What I support is help for those who need AND want it and freedom to choose otherwise. Simple as that.

Someone who needs help is not in a position to determine whether they want it or not.

It's kind of like a bipolar or schizophrenic who goes off his meds: he starts talking too fast and too incoherently or talking to the air or she takes her small children out to a construction site and collapses (this is a true story, not merely a made up example) or he decides to commit suicide by cop (another true story).

A suicidal person who receives treatment against his will can always decide--when he becomes rational again--that ending his life is the right choice. And then it is a choice, not an act of desperation.

Death is not undoable, but there are a lot of people walking around out there who are very grateful to be alive only because someone made decisions for them when they were not capable of making such decisions for themselves.

There is a legal standard for competence. Someone who can't meet it should not have the power to make decisions about life and death.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[popsjumper 2]

Well the premise seems to be getting farther and farther out...started out as someone contemplating suicide and now it's gotten farther out into bipolars, schizophrenics and other forms of mental incompetence.

It's really simple...if you have the capacity to make a personal decision, then it should be you to make the damn thing without some busybody telling you you can't - and that goes for doing yourself in, too.

It's not about saving your buddies life...it's not about the hard times you or anyone else went through...it's just simply a stance for being able to make you own damn decisions.

We already got way too many laws giving others the power to make life-impacting decisions for you without benefit of your imput.

The Overnight Org's net proceeds go 100% to the AFSP group and they advocate legislation which means laws and that probably does mean infringement on personal rights just as the Baker Act does...just as many other laws do. If you are thinking that the advocated legislation ONLY funnels tax money...we can take time out to research that issue, too.

Really, RL it's only about that...nothing more no matter who blows it up into something else nor how they do it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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...Actually, that's one of the cases where doctors specifically do NOT heed a patient's wishes. Quadriplegics often want to end their lives after their accidents, but most change their minds within a year.

So they are held captive in the hopes that they will change their mind in a year. I don't like the idea. I like the Die-With-Dignity idea much better. I wonder, in these cases, how many would have gone ahead and ended their lives in the first place had they some means to do it themselves.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[RhondaLea 4]

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Well the premise seems to be getting farther and farther out...started out as someone contemplating suicide and now it's gotten farther out into bipolars, schizophrenics and other forms of mental incompetence.

First of all it was an analogy.

But it's not that far out: depression is a mental illness, just like bipolar and schizophrenia, and a person with clinical depression is not in his right mind.

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It's really simple...if you have the capacity to make a personal decision, then it should be you to make the damn thing without some busybody telling you you can't - and that goes for doing yourself in, too.

By definition, someone who is clinically depressed does not have such capacity.

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It's not about saving your buddies life...it's not about the hard times you or anyone else went through...it's just simply a stance for being able to make you own damn decisions.

When you're competent to make them.

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We already got way too many laws giving others the power to make life-impacting decisions for you without benefit of your imput.

We're not talking here about the law playing nanny to competent adults.

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The Overnight Org's net proceeds go 100% to the AFSP group and they advocate legislation which means laws and that probably does mean infringement on personal rights just as the Baker Act does...just as many other laws do. If you are thinking that the advocated legislation ONLY funnels tax money...we can take time out to research that issue, too.

I read part of their site. "Legislation and policies" is about money. There's nothing there about locking people up.

You made an assumption. It's wrong.

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Really, RL it's only about that...nothing more no matter who blows it up into something else nor how they do it.

I've already answered this. And you haven't answered any of my questions. I'm done.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Michele 1]

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It's really simple...if you have the capacity to make a personal decision, then it should be you to make the damn thing without some busybody telling you you can't - and that goes for doing yourself in, too.

Do you mean any mentally healthy person making that decision? Or are you including all persons, mentally healthy or not?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 3,132]

>So they are held captive in the hopes that they will change their mind in a year.

Basically, yes. They do the same thing with people who have undergone tragedies, like losing a loved one, even in states where physician assisted suicide is legal. Basically, doctors have to be VERY sure that they are not doing it for transient reasons. It is far better to make a patient wait for a while before they kill themselves than help them kill themselves for a transient reason. It's not something you can undo.

[popsjumper 2]

RL:
I don't see that my position has changed..here's my previous input:
1. I like the idea of suicide being a personal decision without busybody intervention. I support the idea of assisted suicide also. I cannot support this program.

2. What I support is help for those who need AND want it and freedom to choose otherwise. Simple as that.

I wouldn't say wrong...yet. While AFSP does provide monies for reseach and education they also lobby for legislation. If that doesn't mean restrictive laws such as the Baker Act, then I will stand corrected... we both should dig deeper into it.

I re-read all your posts related to this and I didn't see anywhere that you had asked any questions.

Michele:
All persons mentally capable of making rational decisions...please don't come back with suicide being an irrational decision because quite often it's not.

BillVon:
Yes they do that on a regular basis as it's their credo to do so. The Living Will is a good step in the right direction for those who cannot make the decision...why restrcit those who can make the decision?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[happythoughts 0]

You are missing the point.

You are not allowed to ask to end your life unless you have the capacity to do so. You must be rational.

However, if you ask to end your life, then you are irrational and must be treated. You will not be allowed to end your life until you quit wishing to do so.

Or, in Mr. Yossarian's case, you have to keep flying missions.

[Michele 1]

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All persons mentally capable of making rational decisions...please don't come back with suicide being an irrational decision because quite often it's not.

I have a different perspective, based not simply on first hand knowledge but also from anecdotal experience. So please don't tell me what I can reply to you with...that only limits the thread.

I don't think that folks with major depressive disorder, schizophrenia, bipolar, et cetera, while ill or during an episode, are capable of making a rational, clear decision. Therefore, you and I agree; those who are mentally competent and able to make clear, competent decisions should be allowed to make those decisions.

Apparently, where we disagree, is understanding mental disability and the difficulty in understanding the ramifications of their decisions...let alone the processes which bring them to making that decision in the first place.

Am I right in that assessment, or have I misunderstood your position?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[popsjumper 2]

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...We're not talking here about the law playing nanny to competent adults.

We've seen the play acted out many times...

Person: Hello? 911? I am depresssed and I've been conteplating suicide. How can i get help?

911 op: Hold on one minute (call cops). Stay with me now.

Person: Hold on someone's at the door...it's the cops.

Person: Why are you taking me to jail or the psych ward?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Michele...re-read my quote...that's why I'm talking about.

Not about anything else, no other conditions, no other degrees of sanity.

In light of that, we seem to agree.

Now about the other issues your raise...geez, how do you NOT make decisions for a stark raving mad lunatic? He can't make them for himself.

Whereas BillVon's example, it's offensive to me that one has to suffer unimaginably until somebody ELSE says..."OK. His decision is not transient so let's go ahead and let him die in peace."

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

Damn...so how many more missions?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Michele 1]

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Not about anything else, no other conditions, no other degrees of sanity.

In light of that, we seem to agree.

Yes, we seem to, at least on that point. Now, the next question is, how does one determine one from the other in the not-so-obvious situations we encounter on a regular basis as a society? That is the question that needs answering, at least from my standpoint.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[popsjumper 2]

Good question and I have no sensible answer for you...hell, half the time I question my own sanity in some of the decisions I make. (Why did I post in SC, for instance)


Could the ability to function in society play a key role?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Amazon 7]

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For those who do want to end it all...it's not my place to dictate to anyone whether they should live or not live.

I am a firm believer.... tht when you know its time.. it is time. I have no desire to be kept alive with heroic measures if I am terminally ill and in severe pain.
I think the people who force a life of pain and suffering on others just to assuage their own fears and dogmatic beliefs need to come to grips wiht the reality that ALL of us will die. No one gets out of this lifetime alive. I want a peaceful end to my life and a peaceful passing.... not one filled with agony because someone refuses to just let me go.


I lived in Oregon at the time that the people VOTED overwhelmingly for the Right to die with dignity. That right is still being mucked with by people who SUPPOSEDLY believe in Jesus and an afterlife.. yet they feel free to deny that afterlife to others.

[Michele 1]

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Could the ability to function in society play a key role?

No...I don't think that's a good measure. For two reasons, primarily.

1. I've known people who were sitting on the edge of suicide, and who were functioning pretty well at the time. Only people in the know knew of their distress, and their desire to suicide. I've known mothers in the throws of PPD/P who were outwardly "functioning" but literally unable to cope. And I know that for myself, when I was there at the edge, I was not considered unfunctioning; most people I knew had no idea what was transpiring inside my mind.

What is function, anyway? The ability to pay taxes? Then every stay-at-home mother who doesn't earn a wage then becomes "non-functioning." Being able to hold a job? Drive a car? Go to the store? Read a book? What? What if someone is completely sane, and only has their groceries delivered and lives off a trust fund and stays at home all the time? They're functioning...in their way, for their needs and choices, in a chosen lifestyle. So is that not functioning?

2. At what point does "functioning" become perjorative, as in "most people eat ice cream for dessert, therefore if you eat ice cream for dinner, you're not functioning" or something along those lines? We're right at defining normal, which I think is almost impossible to do accurately.

I would suspect there are other factors, rather than "functionality", that should be the earmarkers for mental illness...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[quade 4]

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Do you prevent it at all costs?
Do you assist at all costs?
It's situational - sometimes prevent, sometimes assist?

Horribly difficult questions.

I don't know. I've never been there and my guess is that a lot of people that outright denounce it have never been there either.

Hopefully, very few of us will ever -know- what it is like to be so depressed, saddened, guilt ridden, in physical or mental pain so much that we'd consider it.

I can't think of a more personal decision that anyone could ever make and, as long as it doesn't actually harm others, the government certainly shouldn't be in the business of stopping a person from doing what they actively -want- to do.

I do NOT think it's any of the government's business to -prevent- it at all costs, but I do think it is within society's interest to provide help and comfort to those that are operating near that point.

Just to be clear, I'm not really sure of -exactly- what that means in every instance, but I think that a person that is suffering a terminal and degenerative illness ought to have it as an option if he wants it. I also think that if a person isn't -quite- sure and calls a suicide prevention hotline, it's in society's interest to have that hotline staffed 24/7/365.

So, yeah, sometimes assist and sometimes talk down.

It's not a black and white issue. Too bad most people can't see shades of grey.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[popsjumper 2]

I'm thinking that if I'm sane enough to function in society, then I'm sane enough to choose how and when I will die.

Functioning in society...having the ability to sustain oneself and getting along without presenting a danger to anyone else. Rather simplistic but a start....

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[5432154321 0]

Some things can never be undone. You can go through all the therapy in the world. But if a person is SANE and has his or her reasons, what is it of anyone else’s business. Don’t you think that person has enough of his guilt about family and loved ones to worry about? How can you decide for a person that they are not making a rational decision? I can tell you from first hand, that these thoughts are very rational and well thought out with consideration to others such as family and friends. Is it up to suicidal people to keep on suffering just to keep family and loved ones happy? What about when the depressed is living his/her life all alone with little contact with family or friends… what, they’re supposed to live in their shoebox and come out on holidays to smile at everyone and pretend everything’s A-OK just so the family doesn’t have to worry about them? Who is selfish now? When people want to go, BELIEVE me, they’ve thought about it LOTS. Who is anyone to say how you or I decide to go, it really none of anyone’s business. I’ll agree to a degree, that you shouldn’t disrupt anyone else’s life in the process, and those that do, want help, and could probably benefit from it… they are the ones who can’t think rationally. The one’s who KNOW, should be allowed to go. Its just life and we’re all going sometime, it’s no-ones business as to how or when.

---
xenaswampjumper SPANKS THIS ASS!!! I WISH karenmeal spanked this ass too.....

[rasmack 0]

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I'm thinking that if I'm sane enough to function in society, then I'm sane enough to choose how and when I will die.

The hard part is for the rest of us to determine if you are sane or not. Self preservation is the most fundamental part of our psyche, so when that fails we tend to look at is as a mental disorder. IOW the "burden of proof" would be on you to show that you are sane.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Lucky... 0]

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The problem I am having is with the statement from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, "advocating for polices and legislation that can help prevent suicide..." - brings visions of Baker Act and strait jackets. Very susceptible to abuse by relatives and others using the court system.

This should bring visions of dollar bills instead.

This is not about the Baker Act and straitjackets, but about legislation authorizing funding and about developing policies for grants to researchers working in this area.

You would know this if you had read a bit more.

And you've changed your xpremise from the Bonfire thread to this one.

I'm not sure what it is you're aiming for here, Andy. I totally agree that we have the right to determine our individual fates, but a depressed person is not in his right mind, and he cannot make a rational decision to end his life.

Given that, to advocate that anyone should have the right to end it is irresponsible and thoughtless, and I cannot fathom why you would (in the original thread) take such a position.

rl

Well of course there is a battery of tests involved where the competence of the person is tested. With that, once reasonable competence is established, optional suicide would be allowed.

People can commit suicide publicly and dangerously and without dignity, or we can have an alternate means.