9-11 loose change

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"There's a straight fact that there is a minimum temperature for the metal in those builidings to melt, causing collapse. And in Bldg 7, since no plane hit it, hence no jet fule, simple office objects in the building, ie paper, chairs, desks, etc, can't cause a hot enough fire to melt those steel beams. Fact. Next. "

Sorry Kid Icarus, I've been away, but there is a bit of a misconception here.
You don't have to melt the steel to cause it to fail, you just have to take it past its yield point.
Depending on loading and connection details that can be at or around 550 deg c, in the oil industry we assume failure nearer to the 400 deg c for heavily loaded or fatigued structures.

These temperatures are easily achievable with cellulosic fuelled fires that you would likely experience in an office environment.

Once you have a critical structural failure, you can experience a progressive collapse that would look very similar to a controlled demolition.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Kid_Icarus 0]

That would be true if the fire was evenly distributed across every floor evenly, right? Otherwise, some colums and support structures would still have original or at least close to full strength. Which would not let a building fall down, so smoothly, so in its own footprint, wouldn't it? Forget the squibs, I can understand the collapsing and trapped air, how does a building, burning unevenly, and not thoroughly, fall upon itsself in a nice neat pile?

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"What What.....

[Gravitymaster 0]

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That would be true if the fire was evenly distributed across every floor evenly, right? Otherwise, some colums and support structures would still have original or at least close to full strength. Which would not let a building fall down, so smoothly, so in its own footprint, wouldn't it? Forget the squibs, I can understand the collapsing and trapped air, how does a building, burning unevenly, and not thoroughly, fall upon itsself in a nice neat pile?

http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

[SpeedRacer 1]

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What do you think would happen if they found a real cure for cancer all of a sudden?? A many billion dollar a year industry would disappear. They would rather ID and treat diseases than cure them.

Bullshit.

Speed Racer
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[nacmacfeegle 0]

"That would be true if the fire was evenly distributed across every floor evenly, right?"
That was my assumption when I was discussing this very effect with some of our structural engineers (I do the fire side).
Basically no, you need a relatively small failure to start this sort of thing. Once you loose the integrity of say a supporting column, the floor above will collapse. With big heavy structures this will probably be straight downwards due to inertial effects (there is not enough force to topple the structure to one side or another), as opposed to a sort of lazy, slow leaning type collapse. The impact of the collapsing floors will be like a domino effect straight down.

More likely however would be the failure of lateral ties that basically stop the main columns buckling. I would assume that fire protection would have been applied (like concrete type spray) to the main columns. If you loose lateral restraint on the columns, they become very prone to rapid buckling, again leading to progressive collapse of the floors.

If you stack up a neat column of checkers or backgammon pieces, you can knock out the bottom one with a ruler in a kind of slicing motion, and the whole column will fall straight down by one checker space without toppling.

If you watch the twin towers coming down, the upper sections almost remain intact until they really start building up speed, then they just disintegrate. This is because the lower floors are failing first, with the uper building coming as one huge piece.

I don't know about building 7 though, and I'm not entirely convinced we are being fed the truth over the pentagon crash.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Cheers Gravity Dude, that explains thing much better than my feeble attempts.
"Once one storey collapsed all floors above would have begun to fall. The huge mass of falling structure would gain momentum, crushing the structurally intact floors below, resulting in catastrophic failure of the entire structure. While the columns at say level 50 were designed to carry the static load of 50 floors above, once one floor collapsed and the floors above started to fall, the dynamic load of 50 storeys above is very much greater, and the columns were almost instantly destroyed as each floor progressively "pancaked" to the ground."

By the way, I no longer work for Halliburton, our division was bought out by the local management , so now I can return to ranting against horrid corporations and government dodgy dealings.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Kid_Icarus 0]

Really? Then Goodyear should make Tires that last 300,000 miles, and stop filling our junkyards with hard to degrade rubber. GE should make lightbulbs that last 1,000,000,000,000 hours. Gilette should make a razors that lasts more than 3 weeks. Oh wait, there's profit in keeping customers because your product needs to be renewed. The medical industry is in the business of treating patients. If they cured them, they would go out of business. What company would put itsself out of business? Same reason our jails are always filled to capacity, cause it makes $$. People do weird things for $$.

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"What What.....

[cumplidor 0]

Why isn't pot legal? There would no longer be a need for a lot of current medications people take to sleep, calm their nerves, or whatever. The alcohol industry would loose alot too. The oil and wood/paper industries would suffer as well. not gonna happen. To many industries negatively affected. (not to mention the law enforcement industry would be reduced)

There are cures for cancer- eliminate the folowing from your diet
sodium nitrite (in almost every packaged meat- known cancer causing),
partially hydronated oils (cooking oils that have been 'bubbled' with hydrogen so it wont spoil (that effectively pre-spoils it),
chemical based soaps and shampoos (these chems seep in through your skin (think the patches that administer medications),
minimize pharmasuticals (taking all those unproven or questionable meds that have wierd side effects) ,
I could go on-

We are organic creatures, not man-made chemical based creatures. Why would we pump our bodies with man-made chemicals? Because someone we have been told to trust a 'Doctor' from early on. I recently dug up some bottles in a yard that came from 'doctors' They were cough medicines made with choloraform and opium. unfortunately for the patient, the coughs were symptoms of TB and recovering from TB requires you to cough to expel the disease. You cant cough after chloroform and opium... They are in business to make money from selling medications....

[billvon 3,132]

>A CRIME SCENE WAS DISTURBED AND EVIDENCE REMOVED WITH
>LITTLE TO NO INVESTIGATION TO ANY OF IT?!?!

Most crime scenes are. Rescue personnel often make a hash of things while looking for survivors. (Which is as it should be.)

>Eerie similarities mentioned by reporters how they looked like
>demolitions.

Not suprising; that's how they bring buildings down (blow out the support structures and let the buildings pancake.) In this case it was the weakening of those supports by fire.

>What about the squibs (horizontal dust clouds that shoot out 30feet
>before the floor hits?

That's air being compressed by the floor falling above it and shooting out the windows.

>what about near freefall speed the bldg collapsed at? logic dictates
> there should be some sort of resistance from one floor falling to the
>next as the beam bends and breaks each of many beams (and
>concrete) that comprise each floor.

The beams were not bending and breaking as the collapse progressed. The debris above had so much energy (thousands of tons of concrete) that the beam supports were being sheared away completely. That's why there were girders sticking out of the debris afterwards.

> And now if you were a terrorist that was going to take out a building
>and all the folks in it, wouldn't you want it to fall over, to kill the folks
>in the streets too?

Yep, and the first attempt tried to do just that. Looks like they all failed at that particular goal.

>It is all about money, it is all about corporate greed and profits.
>Corporations are truly evil if you think about it. They exploit ANYTHING
>and EVERYTHING for thier profit, not yours and my gain or betterment.

So what you're saying is they're sorta like people, eh?

>What do you think would happen if they found a real cure for cancer all
>of a sudden?? A many billion dollar a year industry would disappear.

And a trillion dollar industry would rise from its ashes.

>They would rather ID and treat diseases than cure them.

So it is your opinion that they have been withholding vaccinations for polio, typhoid, yellow fever, measles and rubella? You think there are no prophylaxes for malaria? You might want to rethink that.

>We are slowly being poisioned by the food industry with their quest
>for profit. They have been able to add many different chemicals to
>our foods to make them 'taste better' and not spoil.

And you have the option to buy food that has none of that stuff in it. That's what we do. You can do it too if you want to. Prefer to eat Ding-Dongs and Cheetos all day? That's fine too. But that's your issue, not the food company's.

>Don't believe me? Why the heck would the Fed allow corporations to
>peddle tobbaco sticks laced with countless chemicals to spur addiction
>and not have to list anything as fas as ingredients go on the package?

Cause the ingredient is 'tobacco.' The fed doesn't "permit" anything - all it does is prohibit. (That's a good thing for you and me.)

>It seems that some folks want to believe that we are the center of the
> universe and everything ervolves around us . . .

And others believe that everyone is out to get them, and the government wants to poison them. Neither viewpoint is very reasonable.

>yet others prefer to learn, ask questions, ask more questions, and
> then a few more just to be absolutely sure. Thats what I do as a
>young skydiver.

That's what most people do. Most of them come to different conclusions than you do, though. That's not bad; it's just life in a free country.

[nanook 1]

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Federal Reserve can print as many dollars as they want without having to report it how much is in circulation.

The economy would be able to tell if this happens. All you have to do is watch for inflation unaccounted for. You can't hide that. M3 is not being reported because of the costs way exceed the benefits of doing it. You could get enough info from M1 and M2.

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Did you know that banks have the ability to create money out of thin air??? By law, when you deposit $1000 into your bank, they can lend out $9000!

There is no conspiracy of the 10% rule of banks. Banks are only allowed to lend out 90% of your deposit for the purpose of preventing crashes from bank runs. This came out of the Crash in the 30's.
Banks arent the only company that creates money out of "thin air". So does Starbucks, private schools, Walmarts and Girlscouts and their crappy cookies. Banks are making profit off of interests(which is the reason they are here for in the first place). The FED prints money in a way to best balance the economy.

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[SpeedRacer 1]

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The medical industry is in the business of treating patients. If they cured them, they would go out of business. What company would put itsself out of business? Same reason our jails are always filled to capacity, cause it makes $$. People do weird things for $$.

Let me take a wild guess here: I bet you've never worked in the field of scientific research.

I am a molecular biologist & I've been doing research for 20 years. Your ideas are typical of conpiracy-theorists: For it to be true, tens of thousands of scientists in the USA & around the world would have to be in on it.

The actual science in cancer research (and in other fields) is performed by researchers, all of whom have access to the latest primary literature describing other workers in the field. CEOs & other corporate bigshots do not control scientific progress, WE do.

Of course, to become a scientist you first have to be indoctrinated into the Great Conspiracy in a secret ritual involving hooded acolytes with wooden paddles.

Speed Racer
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[billvon 3,132]

>Then Goodyear should make Tires that last 300,000 miles . . .

They can; you would hate them. Friction causes traction, and friction works by actually leaving a little rubber behind. Goodyear could easily make a flexible steel tire (they did for the moon rover) that would work OK on dirt, and would give you very little traction on concrete or asphalt.

So instead they make tires people will actually buy.

>GE should make lightbulbs that last 1,000,000,000,000 hours.

Again, they can. I have one of them here. It's a 10 watt bulb; it cost $230. (Well, it lasts 200,000 hours; about 20 years.) Why aren't you buying them? Are you in on the conspiracy?

>Gilette should make a razors that lasts more than 3 weeks.

They last several years for me.

>People do weird things for $$.

And people like you do weird things to avoid spending $$, like buying cheap light bulbs that burn out really fast, or buying tires with traction that don't last the life of the car. Do you do it because you want to destroy the planet, or because you like to keep as much $$ as possible? Well, believe it or not, other people are like you.

[Kid_Icarus 0]

"And people like you do weird things..."

you don't know me...

maybe I take the bus to work and ride my bike, and make candles and eat only raw vegatables...maybe I"m an alien from Uranus writing a report on earthlings...... ooooooo eeeeeeeee ooooooooo

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"What What.....

[dorbie 0]

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Thanks for posting this, I'm glad someone out there can be bothered to refute all the conspiracy guff that floats around. These conspiracy arguments are based on a house of cards with many statements of 'fact' are just not established at all but non critical readers just fall for it hook line and sinker while thinking they're the ones with an open mind. Sigh.

Reminds me of so much other crap out there, like faked moon landings, the Face on Mars and the Kennedy Assasination.

Human nature is depressing some times.

Just curious; why is "abovetopsecret.com" any more believeable than the original post?

That's just not my position at all, I'll judge the content not the domain name thanks. The domain has all sorts of crap on there, so what.

[kallend 2,175]

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"And people like you do weird things..."

you don't know me...

maybe I take the bus to work and ride my bike, and make candles and eat only raw vegatables...maybe I"m an alien from Uranus writing a report on earthlings...... ooooooo eeeeeeeee ooooooooo

Please click on this link IMMEDIATELY:

www.amazon.com/gp/music/clipserve/B000000CWO001001/1/ref=mu_sam_ra001_001/104-0718534-2857549

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[skydyvr 0]

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>Gilette should make a razors that lasts more than 3 weeks.

They last several years for me.

Do you keep them under a small properly oriented pyramid?

. . =(_8^(1)

[billvon 3,132]

>Do you keep them under a small properly oriented pyramid?

Nope, it's an electric one. The last one I got has been going strong for 2 years now.

[skydyvr 0]

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Nope, it's an electric one. The last one I got has been going strong for 2 years now.

My face stings just reading that.

. . =(_8^(1)

[cumplidor 0]

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>A CRIME SCENE WAS DISTURBED AND EVIDENCE REMOVED WITH
>LITTLE TO NO INVESTIGATION TO ANY OF IT?!?!
Most crime scenes are. Rescue personnel often make a hash of things while looking for survivors. (Which is as it should be.)

I disagree. It wasn't the rescue workers that made the arrangements to have the wreckage transported overseas (sold) so quickly.

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(blow out the support structures and let the buildings pancake.) In this case it was the weakening of those supports by fire.

Again, I disagree. I have been a welder in a past life and the type of steel used and the thickness is simply not able to be overcome by collapsing floors. even all the weight. the collapsing debris would have slid off the floor while waiting for it to collapse. And Kerosene will simply not sustain enough heat, for long enough to melt steel, or even systematically weaken all of these massive I beams simultaneoulsy, for 110 floors. That just make my brain hurt trying to make it believe it! A MUCH more plausible answer to me is that cutting charges are placed on each I beam, for 110 floors. That WOULD systematically weaken all of these massive I beams simultaneoulsy, for 110 floors, all at the same time.

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>What about the squibs (horizontal dust clouds that shoot out 30feet
>before the floor hits?
That's air being compressed by the floor falling above it and shooting out the windows.

I have a hard time with this too. If that were the case, wouldn't that be true on every floor? Wouldn't we see squibs on every floor? I guess not. Maybe some of the windows were open...

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The beams were not bending and breaking as the collapse progressed. The debris above had so much energy (thousands of tons of concrete) that the beam supports were being sheared away completely.

Could you please explain this to me again? this was enough force to simultaneously SHEAR OFF 2 foot tall steel I beams reinforced with and completely pulverize 3' floors of concrete? Over and over again for 80+ floors? Without some sort of help beyond maybe 3 or 4 floors of burning K1? I understand in physics that each floor would transfer some of that energy to the next floor, then the next, and each transfer will result in a reduction of energy because the 'shearing' & 'pulverising' going on. The 'shearing' & 'pulverising' process also takes time. It is simply more time than pure freefall allows for. AND you guys are calling us gullible? For those of you that haven't seen the BYU physics professor come forward and call it a demolition check out: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635160132,00.html

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>It is all about money, it is all about corporate greed and profits.
>Corporations are truly evil if you think about it. They exploit ANYTHING
>and EVERYTHING for thier profit, not yours and my gain or betterment.

So what you're saying is they're sorta like people, eh?

Uh, no. I am certainly not someone who exploits others for my personal gains. Maybe you were thinking of someone else...

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>They would rather ID and treat diseases than cure them.

So it is your opinion that they have been withholding vaccinations for polio, typhoid, yellow fever, measles and rubella? You think there are no prophylaxes for malaria? You might want to rethink that.

Bill you put serious words in my mouth. I did not say that, they obviously have vacines for most of those. (Too bad many of them have many times the same levels of the poision mercury in them). My statemnet, is that they healed people, there would be no sick people, or put themselves out of work. Perhaps you support this way of doing business?

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>What do you think would happen if they found a real cure for cancer all
>of a sudden?? A many billion dollar a year industry would disappear.

And a trillion dollar industry would rise from its ashes.

Huh? Which one would that be?

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>We are slowly being poisioned by the food industry with their quest
>for profit. They have been able to add many different chemicals to
>our foods to make them 'taste better' and not spoil.

And you have the option to buy food that has none of that stuff in it. That's what we do. You can do it too if you want to. Prefer to eat Ding-Dongs and Cheetos all day? That's fine too. But that's your issue, not the food company's.

It becomes my issue when I cannot find chewing gum anymore that doesn't contain aspartame or acesulfame K (both toxins), and I simply have a problem with corporations being allowed to push their addictive, unhealthy products onto ignorant people. Our children are bombarded everyday with commercials for this crap, and some of us give it to them (Unknowingly or stupidly - I venture more unknowingly than not) Not to mention, Genetically Modified foods are becoming commonplace and are dangerous too. Most of our soybeans, corn and potatoes are now GM crops. I don't call that much of a choice...

Why are we not taught this stuff in schools? That these food life extenders dont work on our personal life? (that wouldn't be profitable)

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Cause the ingredient is 'tobacco.' The fed doesn't "permit" anything - all it does is prohibit. (That's a good thing for you and me.)

Oh bull crap. They 'prohibit' them from putting ingredients or permit them to not... they permit the 'tobacco' companies by turning thier heads. When enough of the people bitch about it, the Fed made a few concessions for the victims, yet still provided more shelter for the corps.

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And others believe that everyone is out to get them, and the government wants to poison them. Neither viewpoint is very reasonable.

Wow, I don't think everyone is out to get me, and it is not the govt trying to poision us. (its the corporations) The govt is just allowing it, because people don't seem to care anymore- (are you part of the problem or part of the solution?) I think trying to make evil, greedy corporations accountable for what they encourage us to do to ourselves, is actually very reasonable. Trying to get the general public to wake up to the abuse is reasonable, I think.

Trying to cloud the situation with distractions, false and odd statements is not reasonable.

[nanook 1]

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Kerosene will simply not sustain enough heat, for long enough to melt steel, or even systematically weaken all of these massive I beams simultaneoulsy, for 110 floors.

Why Not?

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"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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Wow, I don't think everyone is out to get me

Some of us might decide to be out to get you if you cant make these dayum posts shorter... EEEEESHHHHH

[Michele 1]

Cumplidor, in all honesty, I'm curious. What do you think happened on 9/11, and what happened to the WTC, Pennsylvania, and the Pentagon? What do you really think occurred? Please just answer for yourself; if possible, give details, but tell me in your own words...I'd appreciate it.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[skygeek 0]

Anyone eles see this story?

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Sheen_interview_on_911_garners_media_0323.html

Gotta love this quote:

It's like they want to pigeonhole all of us into conspiracy nutbags when we're not debating things that are related to UFO's bringing down the towers or Building 7 or the Pentagon and so its feels like there's things in there that we’re not the conspiracy theorists on this particular issue," said Sheen.

"It seems to me like 19 amateurs with box cutters taking over four commercial airliners and hitting 75 percent of their targets: that feels like a conspiracy theory."

Welcome to the New World Order. Expect no Mercy.

[yourmomma 0]

"The US doesn't allow cell phone use on flights as a security measure."



Not true. Cell phones are of poor construction. They produce harmonics that can and do interfere with aircraft com and nav radios. Most cellphones operate in the 1-2 gig range. Com and nav-DME, glideslope, loc, transponder- operate in the same RF range.

[cumplidor 0]

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What do you think happened on 9/11

Well, I am not 100%, obviously, I was not personally at each of these different locations, so have no way to know from that perspective. I must base it on what I saw with my eyes, and what seems plausible to my brain.

I certainly believe planes hit the twin towers. Penn I am not so sure, nor the Pentagon. While I have seen pictures with obscure pieces of airplanes at the Pentagon crash site, nothing you would think (like wings?) The hole seems small for the plane, and the video that has been released leaves MUCH to be desired. I would really like to see the hotel video or Highway dept video, but I doubt that will happen. CG is getting such that if they delay it a few more years, they could probably have a good one done by then

I also believe that our goverment no longer serves the people it was originally designed to serve. Our republic has been twisted and corrupted into a fat and out of control beuracacy that serves the corporation. Corruption is deep, and money is easily spent on illegal invasions and domestic wiretaps, but they can't seem to find enough money for education? They could print more, its just not the top priority I think. (The right folks aren't making the money is what it is- just another symptom of govt out of control)

sorry for the long posts... I can get wound up sometimes...