skyshrink 0 #1 November 29, 2006 I overheard one of my fellow jumpers describe an incident while she was flying under canopy, perpendicular to the line of flight, upwind, another jumper opened between 50 to 100 feet in front of her. The other jumper was one of the camera flyers for our tandems. So, he was one of the last to leave the plane. Apparently, the plane made a go-around at 180 degrees to the original line of flight. therefore, the initial jumper was flying perpendicular to the second line of flight. this same scenario happened to me about a month and a half prior to this incident. I've looked throughout the sims to see what it says about where to fly in perspective to the line of flight. it may be somewhere in the sims, but I had a hell of a time finding any info about flying the line of flight. The initial jumpers have no way of knowing whether or not the pilot has had to fly a go-around. Neither of the second flyers were aware that a canopy was headed towards them as they opened. Both of the former pilots were flying canopies at about 2500 agl at the time when they (nearly) crossed paths with the other jumpers. at our dz, the order out the door is belly flyers(big group to solo), free flyers(big group to solo), students with coaches, student solo, tandems with video, tandems. we make adjustments for high pullers. We're very good about discussing pull altitude and landing aproaches prior to boarding the plane. I'm perplexed as to how to solve this problem of near miss free-faller/canopy collision. I'd like some input. Any advice? do we change exit order? or should the pilot change patterns of flight?Mistakes-It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,087 #2 November 29, 2006 > I'm perplexed as to how to solve this problem of near miss free-faller/canopy collision. 1.) Know winds aloft and winds at opening, and use that knowledge to decide on a safe separation interval. 2.) Put RW out first (when flying into the wind) freeflyers next and students last. 3.) At breakoff, track away from the center of your group. You are far more at risk from them than from another group. 4.) When doing 180's on jump run, make sure the pilot/spotter offsets the downwind jump run so you don't freefall into another group. 5.) Keep your eyes open from exit to landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jheadley 0 #3 November 29, 2006 How much of an offset is necessary for the 180 jump run? Are there any disadvantages to a downwind jump run? I guess your ground speed would be much higher so you couldn't dilly-dally as much in the door, but anything else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #4 November 29, 2006 Quote 4.) When doing 180's on jump run, make sure the pilot/spotter offsets the downwind jump run so you don't freefall into another group. When you say offset - is it a jump run that is parallel to the original jump run but a certain distance away, or is it actually at an angle to the original jump run? Question about this as it relates to the OP's question. If a jumper from the first jump run is under canopy and flying perpendicular to jump run (to stay clear of other jumpers on the same jump run), would an offset jump run be more likely to put the jumpers in the first jump run in the path of the second jump run, at least once they're under canopy? They are flying perpendicular to the original jump run and possibly directly towards the new jump run."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,087 #5 November 29, 2006 >How much of an offset is necessary for the 180 jump run? Depends on conditions. I'd go with about 1/2 mile (2500 feet) myself. Perris uses a similar offset when they are running two aircraft. >Are there any disadvantages to a downwind jump run? Well, the ideal order is reversed (i.e. freeflyers should get out first) but that's usually not an issue since most of the load has exited. Also you have to be quick about exiting due to the faster ground speed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,087 #6 November 29, 2006 >is it a jump run that is parallel to the original jump run but a certain >distance away, or is it actually at an angle to the original jump run? Parallel. That's easier on the pilot anyway; it's hard to turn an aircraft on a dime, so a "racetrack" pattern gives him (and the spotter) an easier setup. >If a jumper from the first jump run is under canopy and flying > perpendicular to jump run (to stay clear of other jumpers on the > same jump run), would an offset jump run be more likely to put the > jumpers in the first jump run in the path of the second jump run, at > least once they're under canopy? It definitely could - which is why offsets should be on the order of half a mile, and upwind if possible. I'm not a big fan of tracking/flying your canopy perpindicular to jump run though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #7 November 29, 2006 Quote It definitely could - which is why offsets should be on the order of half a mile, and upwind if possible. I'm not a big fan of tracking/flying your canopy perpindicular to jump run though. What would be preferable for canopy flight?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,087 #8 November 29, 2006 >What would be preferable for canopy flight? I prefer: 1) track away from the center, open on heading (or turn back onto heading after opening) 2) fly away from the center while you take off booties, pull up visor, whatever. Say, five to fifteen seconds. Those actions accomplish two things - they get you clear of your own group (which is your biggest hazard) and they ensure people are acting predictably shortly after opening. From there depends on what conditions are like: If you are far from the LZ, turn towards it. If you are doing a bigway, enter the pre-planned extended pattern for landing. If you're near the DZ, lose altitude in your general airspace, then enter the pattern and land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #9 November 29, 2006 Yep, that matches pretty well with how I approach the end of the skydive, and the canopy ride (well, except for the bigway stuff since I haven't been on one of those). But the "always fly perpendicular to jump run" and "always track perpendicular to jump run" conventional wisdom still seems to be out there. I've always focused more on getting away (and then staying away) from the people in my group than getting myself precisely 90 degrees from jump run."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azureriders 0 #10 November 30, 2006 Quote I'm not a big fan of tracking/flying your canopy perpindicular to jump run though. Thank you, I am glad to hear someone of such numbers that agrees with me on this one. I so often hear "jump run is N, we should track E to W" with out even a mention to the younger jumper that he should 180 from the formation. A side note to the original poster, as with all things envolving planing, this relys on every one doing as they say they are going to do. On a full outter load of many groups we had planned on two jump runs, something that is not at all uncommon at gold coast. The original plan was for Red and I to the the last out on pass 1, then a solo, who was not known at our DZ and planning to pull at 5000 was going to be first out on pass 2, followed by a couple AFF jumps. The solo was not comfortable spotting, and that made the AFFIs not comfortable with an unknown jumper, who can not spot, being in the same airspace as their students. New plan, the solo goes out last on pass 1, Red and I first on load 2. Made the AFFIs much more comfortable and I saw no problem with it. I checked the spot as the solo left and monitored the complete 360 degree go around that toke some time and then spotted the second pass. Now I did not spot the begining of the first pass but from what I could tell from the tail end of it, the second pass was offset at least 1/2 mile and several minutes had passes. Red and I exit, two way belly drills. I video her track and deployment at 4000, then track my self to deploy just below 3000. During my snivel I find a huge student type canopy in our air space, I automaticaly assume it is one of the student that got out behind us. As soon as I have flight control I stear away to give him room wondering how he got so close, then realize that is no student, it is the solo from the first pass. Our final conclusion, although he had left and we could not question him, was that he had pulled MUCH higher than planned and flew over to our Jump run. The whole thing made me rethink my ablity to see all (or atleast most) of the hazards of a particular jump, but the biggest thing I toke away from this was that a second pass can add another variable to the saftey factor. I am not saying they are bad, I like to see them and think they are way better than everone screamming "get out get out" on a single pass, but they do add one more variable. sorry for the length, but I thought this story fit well here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,114 #11 November 30, 2006 Quote >How much of an offset is necessary for the 180 jump run? Depends on conditions. I'd go with about 1/2 mile (2500 feet) myself. Perris uses a similar offset when they are running two aircraft. . A standard rate turn at jump run speed gives you over a mile offset.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyshrink 0 #12 November 30, 2006 the plane is actually making a complete 180 degree uturn and dumping the second load of jumpers downwilnd on top of the other jumpers. these haven't been planned, so no one on the ground talks about it. so, the tandem video guys are opening while the first group is already under canopy. most of the videographers open low because they are in a hurry to get to the ground to video the tandems landing. the problems lie in 1. no one knows whether or not the plane will do a go around 2. when a go around is done, only those on the plane no about it and the go around is 180 degree uturn on top of already existing jumpers. 3. there is a huge discrepancy b/n the oopening of the tandems and their videographers. 6.000 vs, 3.500. so changing the order of the tandems wouldn't help much. 4. videographers are not aware that they are opening on top of an already existing canopy pilot. (both videographers said they didn't see the canopy pilot)Mistakes-It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,087 #13 November 30, 2006 >the plane is actually making a complete 180 degree uturn >and dumping the second load of jumpers downwilnd on top of the >other jumpers. That is indeed a problem, but the problem can be ameliorated by looking out of the airplane before exiting. That way the cameraman will not be caught unawares by high canopies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #14 November 30, 2006 Quote the plane is actually making a complete 180 degree uturn and dumping the second load of jumpers downwilnd on top of the other jumpers First off, unless the pilot is making a tear drop shaped manuver, the time the turn itself takes builds in some offset to the second jumprun. Additionally, the time it takes to call a bad spot, perform the actual turn, jam the exit and go should allow some additional time for those who have already exited to clear the airspace. As far as video guys, they should be opening as soon as possible after the tandem pair has opened. By virtue of opening after them, and having a faster canopy, they should have no problem beating tandems to the ground without humming it down. As far as jumpers go, they shoud be in the habit of flying down the jumprun once its safe to do so, in essence clearing the air for the groups behind them. You do need to locate the group before you, and make sure you're not creating a conflict. This can be a problem if you're in the first freefly group after the RW groups. You can pass them in freefall, open before them, and fly under them if you don't clear the airspace. The bottom line is this though, the satff at the DZ needs to be more in the ball. If they want a go-around to improve their spot, thats fine, but it's up to them to employ safe procedures at all times. If the 180 type of go-around does not work, they need to be doing a full go around, with sufficient time for the jumpers to clear the airspace. Another option is for the tandems to exit on the first pass, in the original exit order. TM's can adjust their pull altitudes if need be to make it back to the DZ, and can easily communitcate this to the video guys so they follow suit. Even without communication, if video guys would pull soon after the tandems, or simply be smart and see how for out they are after the tandem opens, and adjust their pull alt accordingly, the problem would be sloved, without the cost of a go-around to the DZO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,114 #15 November 30, 2006 Quote the plane is actually making a complete 180 degree uturn and dumping the second load of jumpers downwilnd on top of the other jumpers. ) It takes a very sharp 180 to bring the downwind run within 1/2 mile of the upwind run. (That is what caused the Corey Lidle crash in NYC recently.)... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites