kallend 2,231 #1 March 13, 2006 Is APCP rocket fuel an "explosive"? NAR sued ATFE in 1999 and the case has slowly wound its way through the courts. From the Federal Appeals Court for DC: "The problem in this case is that ATFE's explanation for its determination that APCP deflagrates lacks any coherence. We therefore owe no deference to ATFE's purported expertise because we cannot discern it. ATFE has neither laid out a concrete standard for classifying materials along the burn-deflagrate-detonate continuum, nor offered data specific to the burn speed of APCP when used for its 'common or primary purpose.' On this record, the agency's decision cannot withstand judicial review." Full decision of the court at: nar.org/pdf/2006OralArgumentDecision.pdf Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. OK, who's bringing the chips?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #2 March 13, 2006 Good deal - ATF(e) *NEEDS* a couple black eyes on a regular basis...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,231 #3 March 13, 2006 QuoteGood deal - ATF(e) *NEEDS* a couple black eyes on a regular basis... Right! ATFE is the epitome of the arrogant government agency.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #4 March 13, 2006 I wasn't able to reach the paper... are you able to do your rocket stuff again now without them messing with you?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,231 #5 March 13, 2006 QuoteI wasn't able to reach the paper... are you able to do your rocket stuff again now without them messing with you? Not yet, case referred back to district court for final decision. Looks like ATFE will not be able to prove their case now, though, since there's been a lot of evidence presented that APCP is NOT explosive (if you put a detonator in it and set it off, the APCP doesn't even burn let alone explode), and ATFE's entire case was "we are the experts and we say it is explosive". The appeals court told them to stuff that.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #6 March 13, 2006 QuoteATFE's entire case was "we are the experts and we say it is explosive". The appeals court told them to stuff that. Now *THAT'S* been long overdue!!! Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #7 March 13, 2006 even without your petty little matter, the ATF looks pretty ugly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 March 13, 2006 Quoteeven without your petty little matter, the ATF looks pretty ugly. Yeah, the stupid stunts they pull in gun prosecutions has been going on for decades. Some of it would make this rocket motor matter look like peanuts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,231 #9 March 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteeven without your petty little matter, the ATF looks pretty ugly. Yeah, the stupid stunts they pull in gun prosecutions has been going on for decades. Some of it would make this rocket motor matter look like peanuts. Peanuts or not, be pleased that someone took them on and appears to have prevailed.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #10 March 14, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteeven without your petty little matter, the ATF looks pretty ugly. Yeah, the stupid stunts they pull in gun prosecutions has been going on for decades. Some of it would make this rocket motor matter look like peanuts. Peanuts or not, be pleased that someone took them on and appears to have prevailed.[/reply ........................................................................... Amen to that....I wish they were put in their place more often. I heard the ATF even has it's own air force. Sounds to me like a bunch of really bored people just waiting to pounce on somebody....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #11 March 14, 2006 QuoteSounds to me like a bunch of really bored people just waiting to pounce on somebody... And it's much easier to catch honest people in technical violations, than it is to catch violent criminals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jdhill 0 #12 March 16, 2006 Does anyone besides the Brady bunch like ATFE? When it comes to budget cuts, they along with the TSA would be at the top of my list... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hairyjuan 0 #13 March 17, 2006 the batf and all other alphabet agencies are in existence because of two reasons 1. they are all formed under international law and 2. they are all agencies of the UNITED NATIONSwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #14 March 17, 2006 Quotethe batf and all other alphabet agencies are in existence because of two reasons 1. they are all formed under international law and 2. they are all agencies of the UNITED NATIONS ??????Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #15 March 17, 2006 hahaha, and the award for "Misinformed Man of The Year" goes to... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,231 #16 September 6, 2009 Quote Quote ATFE's entire case was "we are the experts and we say it is explosive". The appeals court told them to stuff that. Now *THAT'S* been long overdue!!! Well, it took years but the judge finally threw out the ATFE's case and ATFE capitulated. APCP is NOT an explosive. Letter attached.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billeisele 130 #17 September 6, 2009 I love this part "ATF is committed to helping licensees and permitees comply with federal explosives laws." just like the Highway Patrol is committed to helping drivers comply with driving lawsGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,231 #18 September 6, 2009 QuoteI love this part "ATF is committed to helping licensees and permitees comply with federal explosives laws." just like the Highway Patrol is committed to helping drivers comply with driving laws Right! If ATFE had complied with federal law and its own definitions, this lawsuit would never have been needed in the first place. Sad thing is it took 10 years and $1/2M to get it resolved by the courts, on account of ATFE's delaying tactics. All that while ATFE was collecting license fees to which it was not entitled, and requiring said license holders to waive their 4th Amendment rights.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
JohnRich 4 #11 March 14, 2006 QuoteSounds to me like a bunch of really bored people just waiting to pounce on somebody... And it's much easier to catch honest people in technical violations, than it is to catch violent criminals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #12 March 16, 2006 Does anyone besides the Brady bunch like ATFE? When it comes to budget cuts, they along with the TSA would be at the top of my list... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hairyjuan 0 #13 March 17, 2006 the batf and all other alphabet agencies are in existence because of two reasons 1. they are all formed under international law and 2. they are all agencies of the UNITED NATIONSwe are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively wishers never choose, choosers never wish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #14 March 17, 2006 Quotethe batf and all other alphabet agencies are in existence because of two reasons 1. they are all formed under international law and 2. they are all agencies of the UNITED NATIONS ??????Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #15 March 17, 2006 hahaha, and the award for "Misinformed Man of The Year" goes to... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,231 #16 September 6, 2009 Quote Quote ATFE's entire case was "we are the experts and we say it is explosive". The appeals court told them to stuff that. Now *THAT'S* been long overdue!!! Well, it took years but the judge finally threw out the ATFE's case and ATFE capitulated. APCP is NOT an explosive. Letter attached.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billeisele 130 #17 September 6, 2009 I love this part "ATF is committed to helping licensees and permitees comply with federal explosives laws." just like the Highway Patrol is committed to helping drivers comply with driving lawsGive one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,231 #18 September 6, 2009 QuoteI love this part "ATF is committed to helping licensees and permitees comply with federal explosives laws." just like the Highway Patrol is committed to helping drivers comply with driving laws Right! If ATFE had complied with federal law and its own definitions, this lawsuit would never have been needed in the first place. Sad thing is it took 10 years and $1/2M to get it resolved by the courts, on account of ATFE's delaying tactics. All that while ATFE was collecting license fees to which it was not entitled, and requiring said license holders to waive their 4th Amendment rights.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
