Lithium Batteries

[rickjump1 0]

Lithium powered automobiles and motorcycles are being touted as clean energy. What happens to large lithium batteries when they are worn out? Are they recycled or do they become more hazmat? Anybody familiar with this?

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[LouDiamond 1]

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What happens to large lithium batteries when they are worn out? Are they recycled or do they become more hazmat?

Lithium batteries, even when fully charged are still considered HAZMAT because they can off gas. After a lithium battery is expended it has to be properly disposed of and is still handled as HAZMAT. We use a good deal of Lithium batteries in the Military and when ever we travel we have to do HAZMAT docs on them, even the spent ones.

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[rickjump1 0]

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What happens to large lithium batteries when they are worn out? Are they recycled or do they become more hazmat?

Lithium batteries, even when fully charged are still considered HAZMAT because they can off gas. After a lithium battery is expended it has to be properly disposed of and is still handled as HAZMAT. We use a good deal of Lithium batteries in the Military and when ever we travel we have to do HAZMAT docs on them, even the spent ones.

Looks like huge disposal problems if whole civilian vehicle fleets are lithium powered in the future. I understand the military use and need.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[miked10270 0]

Are we talking about Lithium Dry Cells (long-life batteries), or Lithium-Ion Rechargeables?

Li-Ion batteries have already appeared in mobile phones - they can store a lot more charge with less weight & bulk compared to NiMh or Lead-Acid. Their drawback (thus far) has been their relative expense.

Mike.

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[AndyMan 7]

Specifically I think you're talking about Lithium Ion batteries.

If they're to be disposed, they must be disposed properly. This is especially true for smaller batteries, like those in your cellphone and laptop computer - since they're small, there isn't much of a market for recycling them. They tend to get (illegally) tossed in the garbage, and end up in land-fills.

This isn't really any different then older lead-acid batteries. Currently small ones get (illegally) tossed in the trash while larger ones (like a typical car battery) get recycled.

Larger Lithium Ion batteries - like those found in Hybrids - get reclycled and re-used. The value of the spent batteries is several hundred dollars, far more than the cost of recycling it.

_Am

__

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[rickjump1 0]

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Specifically I think you're talking about Lithium Ion batteries.

If they're to be disposed, they must be disposed properly. This is especially true for smaller batteries, like those in your cellphone and laptop computer - since they're small, there isn't much of a market for recycling them. They tend to get (illegally) tossed in the garbage, and end up in land-fills.

This isn't really any different then older lead-acid batteries. Currently small ones get (illegally) tossed in the trash while larger ones (like a typical car battery) get recycled.

Larger Lithium Ion batteries - like those found in Hybrids - get reclycled and re-used. The value of the spent batteries is several hundred dollars, far more than the cost of recycling it.

_Am

Larger lithium ion batteries are the ones I wondered about. Funny you should mention Hybrids. It's also part of the name of a company that uses these batteries. They have some interesting products. Clicky http://www.hybridtechnologies.com/ I called them up more than a week ago and asked what happened to old large batteries. The man I talked to did not have a clue and promised to get back to me. Haven't hear from anybody yet.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[billvon 3,111]

First off, there is a difference between lithium and lithium-ion. Lithium batteries are 'primary' batteries; they are used once and discarded. Lithium-ion (including lithium polymer and lithium sulfur) are secondary batteries - they are not a source of power, and must first be charged with some other source of power before they are useful. The big advantage (of course) is that you can do that again and again.

>Are they recycled or do they become more hazmat?

You can recycle li-ion batteries. However, they are not like lead-acid batteries. In lead-acid batteries, the primary reason for recycling is to keep the lead out of the waste stream, because it's deadly when it gets into water supplies. With li-ion, the primary reasons are:

-Safety. The batteries are flammable.
-Electrolyte toxicity. Lithium is a very benign metal; "lithium poisoning" is not really a threat. The electrolyte can be pretty nasty though; that's most of why they are considered hazardous.
-Financial. Lithium is scarce. It is both fortunate and unfortunate that there is so little lithium in lithium-ion batteries. Fortunate because that makes them cheaper; unfortunate because it's often not worth recycling the lithium if it gets you a few cents worth of lithium from each cell. Whether or not we recycle li will depend primarily on future costs of lithium.

[kallend 2,146]

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-Safety. The batteries are flammable.

No kidding! Some very spectacular explosions have been caused by abused Li-Poly batteries.

...

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[billvon 3,111]

>Some very spectacular explosions have been caused by abused Li-Poly batteries.

Li-polymer are usually not quite as much of a hazard since they are not (usually) mechanically constrained. They can undergo "rapid disassembly" (a euphemism if I ever heard one) but it's driven by rapidly increasing pressure, and usually results in a loud "pop" as the envelope ruptures. Li-ions in cans (like the common 18650 size, used in most laptop packs and larger camera batteries) can contain much higher pressure before they rupture, making them a lot more violent.

On occasion, a short circuit will cause the rapid pressure buildup, and also cause a spark as the case ruptures. This is pretty dramatic since the electrolyte is flammable. When we did nail-puncture tests on our phone batteries I did it on the roof instead of in a lab - and it turned out to be a good decision. One pack shot into the air and started spinning from the force of the jet of flame shooting from the case, spewing burning plastic and graphite all over the roof.

The good news there is after that happened the first time, I had less trouble getting the techs to wear protective clothing.

[kallend 2,146]

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>Some very spectacular explosions have been caused by abused Li-Poly batteries.

Li-polymer are usually not quite as much of a hazard since they are not (usually) mechanically constrained. They can undergo "rapid disassembly" (a euphemism if I ever heard one) but it's driven by rapidly increasing pressure, and usually results in a loud "pop" as the envelope ruptures. Li-ions in cans (like the common 18650 size, used in most laptop packs and larger camera batteries) can contain much higher pressure before they rupture, making them a lot more violent.

On occasion, a short circuit will cause the rapid pressure buildup, and also cause a spark as the case ruptures. This is pretty dramatic since the electrolyte is flammable. When we did nail-puncture tests on our phone batteries I did it on the roof instead of in a lab - and it turned out to be a good decision. One pack shot into the air and started spinning from the force of the jet of flame shooting from the case, spewing burning plastic and graphite all over the roof.

The good news there is after that happened the first time, I had less trouble getting the techs to wear protective clothing.

Here's a pic of a LiPo R/C airplane battery going off due, I believe, to overcharging:
static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/4/3/5/6/122670.thumb?qTu6oJVgoTyjo7McpzHyZwOcM70cqTyiowVhnaOaBmRlZwL8ZQgcoJSaMFHlEzcjMJp=

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[britboynz 0]

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[mdrejhon 8]

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Here's a pic of a LiPo R/C airplane battery going off due, I believe, to overcharging:
static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/4/3/5/6/122670.thumb?qTu6oJVgoTyjo7McpzHyZwOcM70cqTyiowVhnaOaBmRlZwL8ZQgcoJSaMFHlEzcjMJp=

This doesn't work - the forum is protecting itself against directly linked images. Can you link to the rcgroups.com thread that contains this attachment?

Anyway, there are other photographs of an exploded lithium battery. They are not common, but a catastrophic lithium battery failure they can be quite dramatic. There's a lot of safeguards that this almost never happens though.

[kallend 2,146]

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Here's a pic of a LiPo R/C airplane battery going off due, I believe, to overcharging:
static.rcgroups.com/forums/attachments/4/3/5/6/122670.thumb?qTu6oJVgoTyjo7McpzHyZwOcM70cqTyiowVhnaOaBmRlZwL8ZQgcoJSaMFHlEzcjMJp=

This doesn't work - the forum is protecting itself against directly linked images. Can you link to the rcgroups.com thread that contains this attachment?

Anyway, there are other photographs of an exploded lithium battery. They are not common, but a catastrophic lithium battery failure they can be quite dramatic. There's a lot of safeguards that this almost never happens though.

Try this (attached).

R/C airplane modelers use LiPos a lot (I have them for my R/C electric helicopter) and are advised never to charge them unattended, never to charge them inside a vehicle, and if possible to put them in a fireproof box while charging.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rickjump1 0]

Thanks all for the explanations.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.