I just puked

[akarunway 1]

Watching Bush sign the NEW AND IMPROVED Patriot Act Bill. How come I can't find a copy of it. It secrect maybe? All you young sheep out there better had wake up and smell the coffee

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[briguy 0]

Quote

All you young sheep out there ...

why is this only a young sheep problem?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[matthewcline 0]

I do not know the details of the "new" act.
I didn't agree with all the details of the "old" act.

But there is a price for our freedom, I guess we can decide what we think that cost is and VOTE next time, then we can tell the GOV what we will pay for our freedom.

I just hope what ever we decide is enough with out being to much.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[narcimund 0]

Quote

But there is a price for our freedom

Apparently the cost is freedom itself.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[matthewcline 0]

I don't take it that way.
Squeezed really tight? yeah. But a complete loss?
I dunno, since the currect act doesn't seem to be public yet (at least Ihaven't found it and may be missing the good link).
The old one was a bit off, but not to bad since it didn't seem to effect any one I knew (you know the average law abiding citizen who regardless of race or religon keeps "clean").

But all this is just my Opinion and observations. Not law or any thing.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[narcimund 0]

Quote

but not to bad since it didn't seem to effect any one I knew

Excellent point. As long as it doesn't seem to affect anyone you know, then it's fine.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[akarunway 1]

Quote

Quote

All you young sheep out there ...

why is this only a young sheep problem?

Personally I'm old so tho it pisses me off I'll be dead and gone before the shit really hits the fan (I hope). Actually it's all sheeps problem. I do worry about my kids and grandkids tho. This secret shit has got to cease or ya'll will be in the new secrect american gulags if you don't walk someones moral line. Ok. I'm on my way out to get my cold medicine so I can show my new ID card so I can get in ANOTHER govt. database_____________________________

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Watching Bush sign the NEW AND IMPROVED Patriot Act Bill. How come I can't find a copy of it. It secrect maybe? All you young sheep out there better had wake up and smell the coffee

Sheep??!! Wait, I will get my Montana stick.......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

The old one was a bit off, but not to bad since it didn't seem to effect any one I knew (you know the average law abiding citizen who regardless of race or religon keeps "clean").

Here's the interesting part - how do you know you haven't been affected? I'm a law-abiding individual myself. If the government, for example, was performing warrantless searchs to my papers, data, etc., they'd find me to be clean and move on to others.

Until they press charges on you, you don't know if you've been searched. You may have been. And to me, that's the disturbing part. There is an effect, whether you know it or not.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rushmc 23]

Quote

Quote

but not to bad since it didn't seem to effect any one I knew

Excellent point. As long as it doesn't seem to affect anyone you know, then it's fine.

According to all the scared groups watching all of this no one has been hurt by the act........

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[matthewcline 0]

Well it was kind of a tongue in cheek point.

Since I didn't see it affect any one (I tend to hang out with law abiding citizens) and I never heard or saw a news story (not that it didn't or couldn't have happened) where some one, who didn't warrant suspicion, was accused by some thing gained from it's use I didn't see the point of the complaining.

Really what did we truly loose? I am sure there was some thing, but what?

I tend to be out of the house and office more than in, so I don't go looking for "bad" stuff or "good" stuff either.

If it is just the point hat it may be unconstitutional, ok, I am cool with that (the point, not the being unconstitutional).

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[matthewcline 0]

Legal or not, Unconstitutional or not. I do not know enough about it to argue yet.

Still if they did search you and you didn't know, what was the REAL affect on you?

I am pretty sure when I use the net, I get scaned, it is part of my job. But what has it done to affect me? I can't think of any thing, yet.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Still if they did search you and you didn't know, what was the REAL affect on you?

It's the dignitary aspect of it. Picture some dude sneaking into your girlfriend's apartment and jerking off in her yogurt. She eats it.Hey, she doesn't know, so what is the REAL effect on her? She may never know.

Or some dude putting hidden camera's in your girlfriend's room. Again, she doesn't know, so what's the harm, right?

The fact is that it's a dignitary right that has been violated. It's the whole reason why we have a whole Amendment of the Constitution devoted to the proscription of searches without probable cause.

I used to agree with you. "What do I care? I've got nothing to hide." Well, there's more to it than that,

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[matthewcline 0]

Sounds more like sex crimes than patriot acts issues to me.

It hasn't effected me so I have nothing t ocompare, not even the dignaty arguement.

Maybe I just don't get that exited over it? or maybe I can see the intent and hope fully it will be fixed to work with out having the dignaty of some citizens being soiled.

Nothing was aimed at any one or to be derogatory.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Watching Bush sign the NEW AND IMPROVED Patriot Act Bill. How come I can't find a copy of it. It secrect maybe? All you young sheep out there better had wake up and smell the coffee

You don't know where to look? Let's see, the President's web site is WhiteHouse.gov, so let's go look there. Could there possibly be any news there about it? Oh lookee, there it is!

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/patriotact/

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060309-4.html

From those stories, you see the name of the Bill is HR 3199. So take that info and go to the Library of Congress web site, where legislation is stored, and search on that Bill number. Oh lookee, there it is!

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:6:./temp/~c109xmoi4J::

Gosh, no conspiracy of secrecy at all. You just have to bother to go look for it. I'm sorry to disappoint you.

Oh, and I'm curious why you say you "puked", give a warning to the "sheep", and post a "mad" icon, if you don't even know what the Bill says yet. Isn't that jumping to conclusions without any facts?

Finally, I changed the thread title so it actually reflects the content of the posting.

Have a nice day.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Sounds more like sex crimes than patriot acts issues to me.

It hasn't effected me so I have nothing t ocompare, not even the dignaty arguement.

Maybe I just don't get that exited over it? or maybe I can see the intent and hope fully it will be fixed to work with out having the dignaty of some citizens being soiled.

Nothing was aimed at any one or to be derogatory.

So you have no dignity to lose. OK.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[lawrocket 3]

nope. Not a sex crime. But, interestingly enough, a sex crime deals with personal dignity. Much like a slander, etc.

You said that if a person doesn't know, then what's the harm? I guess you just don't see it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,120]

>It hasn't effected me so I have nothing t ocompare . . .

OK, here's an example.

You trigger some flag in a computer somewhere, because you visited the UK at just the right time or something. They start checking you out. They pull your credit card and notice that you once bought some porn. That sits in your government file for a while. Then you get a book at the library on nuclear power for a school project. Now they start getting more interested. Then they find out you went to a peace rally.

A few more coincidences, and now you're on the no-fly list, a list where every flight you want to take has to be approved by a DHS person. Want to know how you got on it? Sorry, that's classified. Want to get off it? You can't, until you meet their criteria. What is the criteria? Well, we can't tell you, of course, because the terrorists really want to get off the list, too. Why are you asking, again? And why do you want to go back to the UK? Can you prove you have friends there? What are their numbers and addresses - just so we can be sure?

And this HAS happened. Political activists are often put on the no-fly list because they are "dissidents" - and the patriot act allows that to happen.

If you wait until this happens to YOU, it will be too late to do anything about it. Because then you are a potential threat - and the more noise you make, the greater your threat becomes, and you're basically screwed.

[Nightingale 0]

It affected me. It was a colossal pain in the ass. The mess got straightened out several months later, and it took a congressional inquiry to do it.

What happened (pasted from something I wrote at the time):

I discovered, when attempting to E-file my taxes, that the social security people had my birthday wrong. They thought it was the 2nd, and its the 1st. a simple typo from when the card was issued. I can guarantee that my mom wrote the right birthdate on the application. She's my mom. I think she knows what my birthday is.

So, I go down to the SSA with the following:

my birth certificate
my passport
my drivers' license
my social security card
my LA Fire Department ID
even my freakin' library card.

Every single little piece of info I can think of to verify my identity.

the lady at the counter says, that while she believes me, the "security measures we're required to implement by the patriot act" require that they get the ORIGINAL microfiche of my birth certificate from LA County to verify my date of birth.

The problem here is: I was adopted. The copy of my birth certificate that I have is altered. The original records are sealed. SSA does not want to accept an altered version. They'll probably have to get a freakin' court order to open them, which, in the case of ANY adoption information, is a royal PITA and usually denied.

So... I'm grumbling about the mess, but figured it wouldn't be that big a deal, since, other than not being able to e-file my taxes, the issue hasn't caused me any trouble thus far.

HOWEVER... the lady then looks at my drivers' license and says "oh... we might have a problem here."

She tells me that now, the DMV is required to verify personal information with the SSA before issuing or renewing a drivers' license. My license expires in December. They're claiming it will take them at least six months or so to work through this mess to unravel the birth certificate issue, so, I will probably not be able to renew my drivers' license when it expires.

and suddenly the department of education can't seem to allow me to access my financial aid file due to "information does not match."

So, basically:

Because of the patriot act and some moron's typo, come December, I won't be allowed to legally drive a car. As of now, I have no idea how I'm going to pay my school tuition, since I can't access my government financial aid records.

someone please tell me how this is protecting America?

(and no cracks about my driving. I have a perfect driving record from day 1, thanks much.)

[matthewcline 0]

Prof.

I do have dignaty, but how is it effected if I DON'T KNOW?

Lawrocket,

That is my point, I just don't know so how am I affected? If I am arrested then I would know, but chances are, if arrested, I may have done some thing to warrant it.

I still have yet to meet some one who was affected (even here) (now I have met some one here affected by this and it is truly fritening that this could screw a life up so much).

So since there are good quality links to use I will read them. If My opinion changes I will let you know.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[rushmc 23]

Quote

>It hasn't effected me so I have nothing t ocompare . . .

OK, here's an example.

You trigger some flag in a computer somewhere, because you visited the UK at just the right time or something. They start checking you out. They pull your credit card and notice that you once bought some porn. That sits in your government file for a while. Then you get a book at the library on nuclear power for a school project. Now they start getting more interested. Then they find out you went to a peace rally.

A few more coincidences, and now you're on the no-fly list, a list where every flight you want to take has to be approved by a DHS person. Want to know how you got on it? Sorry, that's classified. Want to get off it? You can't, until you meet their criteria. What is the criteria? Well, we can't tell you, of course, because the terrorists really want to get off the list, too. Why are you asking, again? And why do you want to go back to the UK? Can you prove you have friends there? What are their numbers and addresses - just so we can be sure?

And this HAS happened. Political activists are often put on the no-fly list because they are "dissidents" - and the patriot act allows that to happen.

If you wait until this happens to YOU, it will be too late to do anything about it. Because then you are a potential threat - and the more noise you make, the greater your threat becomes, and you're basically screwed.

Would you post a link or the specifics of the incident you spoke of here please?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 3,120]

>Would you post a link or the specifics of the incident you spoke of here please?

The post was a hypothetical example of what could happen to Mr. Cline here. It was an example of how some great new government intrusion (for your own safety of course) suddenly doesn't seem so good when applied to _you_. This sort of thing has happened quite a bit. Some references for your perusal:

"The Transportation Security Administration (TSA), which is now part of the Department of Homeland Security, is authorized by law to maintain watch lists of names of individuals suspected of posing "a risk of air piracy or terrorism or a threat to airline or passenger safety." While initially denying to the media that such a list existed, the TSA finally acknowledged its existence in October 2002."

http://www.epic.org/privacy/airtravel/foia/watchlist_foia_analysis.html

In the above link you will find dozens of letters of complaint from people who were put on the TSA's watch list for no apparent reason. In many cases they are people who have written criticisms of the US government.


"A federal "No Fly" list, intended to keep terrorists from boarding planes, is snaring peace activists at San Francisco International and other U. S. airports, triggering complaints that civil liberties are being trampled."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/09/27/MN181034.DTL
Note that one of the people stopped in that case was a 74 year old nun.

[rushmc 23]

Thanks
I will take a look

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[matthewcline 0]

Wow! What a mess of a Document. No, I didn't read it all but, I did read all the sub titles and read alot of the gobble-d-gook called a bill.

Why do we as a country allow our reps to attach some pretty off stuff to bills?

This is to be for our protection but there is stuff that I do not think have a real close attachment to terrorism, I could be wrong.

Drugs to finance ok, but a Meth lab in the hills of TN? It is a Terrible drug but how many orgs are funding a net work over it.

OK, So I see the point now.

I see the bill has big isues and needs to be cleaned yet even more. The intent was good, but thats where it seemed to go wrong. The one good deal was the allowance for the different law and intelligance agencies to share info. Now, if they would just do that.

Personally, I think my record and current position will show the GOV I am not a threat.

'Gale,
Sorry to hear the truble typo added to a law has caused you. I do wish I had a remedy for you.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[matthewcline 0]

MR? Where?



Just kidden'

I still owe ya a beer! or two!

Now, how do we as a citizenry (real word?) fix this mess our GOV got us into?

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!