A service obligation for young adults

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Please don't make the argument that libs are lock-stepped. A leberal can be pro-gun and be considered liberal, but a conservative can't be pro-choice and be considered a neo-con.

Nuts - the statement here is just as true - "Please don't make the argument that conservatives are lock-stepped. A conservative can be pro-choice and be considered a conservative, but a liberal can't be pro-gun and still be considered a REAL liberal."

Why are you people so blind to the fact that the two parties are identical in practice? Both have just enough flexibility from their nutjob extreme positions to collect almost exactly 50% of the populace.

It works that way by natural design. It HAS to, even with our relatively small population. Anything else would be an extreme deviation from human nature.

Yet the lemmings continue to think that THEIR party is the party of truth and light and honesty. It's like third graders with a clubhouse.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

Do you think receiving an education constitutes "servitude"?

Nope, that's not the analogy he's making.

Do you think that being rigid and purposefully unwilling to see another's side, just for the sake of giving someone a hard time, is a good characteristic of an educator?

( it's a great characteristic for a debator, and adds needed conflict and opportunities for quips)

It's normal, technical types hate analogies. Heck, they even hate it when someone restates a concept using another set of wording. Taking the next step to finding value in a comparison is way out of the comfort zone.

Of course it's his analogy. He is claiming that going to school constitutes involuntary servitude. However, one goes to school to receive something, not to work for the benefit of others (until one becomes a TA in graduate school, but then that is voluntary).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

Suggest you buy yourself a dictionary.

Can't defend your point?

don't bother, he has a very difficult times with analogies. it's kind of like a badminton and a dart

Do you think receiving an education constitutes "servitude"?

Do you think "compulsory" equates to freedom?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

How is it not? The kids are being forced to do something (in this case, their "work" is going to school) against their will at the threat of punishment, and they're certainly not getting paid for it... how does that not fit the definition?

I hope you don't really believe what you're saying, and are just using it for the sake of argument.

Children, having no rights, have to do LOTS of things involuntarily. They aren't allowed to make life-decisions for themselves, so ALL of the choices about them at this age are "involuntary."

There was a time when only rich kids could be educated, and the poor kids were put to work, involuntarily, by their parents....real work....labor.

Whether it's labor or education, the choice is not the child's to make. Never was. However, when children are deemed by society to be capable of deciding what they wish to do with regards to work/education, they're allowed to make that decision for themselves. At 16 they're still minors, but can choose to quit school to become emancipated, get a job....whatever.

At the age that people are capable of choosing, THEN forcing a particular path upon them...military or civil....is a different issue, and the issue of "involuntary servitude" becomes a little more descriptive of the situation.

linz

Quote

Children, having no rights, have to do LOTS of things involuntarily. They aren't allowed to make life-decisions for themselves, so ALL of the choices about them at this age are "involuntary."

Children of 16 and 17 could be executed up to 6 months ago, so adult jeopardy while having no rights as kids don't - agreed.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Suggest you buy yourself a dictionary.

Can't defend your point?

don't bother, he has a very difficult times with analogies. it's kind of like a badminton and a dart

Analogy?

Kids are to mandatory schooling, as
Young people are to mandatory military service.

That's in the most abstract sense. So abstract that it borders on inanity.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

However, one goes to school to receive something, not to work for the benefit of others (until one becomes a TA in graduate school, but then that is voluntary).

Benefit of others - teachers, admins, lobbyists etc compose an entire industry that makes a living off of education.

In the military, soldiers receive training, discipline, food and shelter, pay, leadership experience like no other job. Soldiers also receive an education, and additional help in getting more education once they leave. I have access to one of the best insurance orgs in the world as former military officer, a very nice list of personal contacts in various industries.

making my daughter take out the trash and clean her room is a much less beneficial task than any in military service - poor kid suffering under the harsh yoke of her oppressive parents....

His only point is education is not voluntary for the children, or really even the parents of those children under law.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Do you think receiving an education constitutes "servitude"?

Nope, that's not the analogy he's making.

Do you think that being rigid and purposefully unwilling to see another's side, just for the sake of giving someone a hard time, is a good characteristic of an educator?

( it's a great characteristic for a debator, and adds needed conflict and opportunities for quips)

It's normal, technical types hate analogies. Heck, they even hate it when someone restates a concept using another set of wording. Taking the next step to finding value in a comparison is way out of the comfort zone.

Of course it's his analogy. He is claiming that going to school constitutes involuntary servitude. However, one goes to school to receive something, not to work for the benefit of others (until one becomes a TA in graduate school, but then that is voluntary).

Do the young adults involved not receive training and tuition compensation in exchange for their service, just as students receive grades for their schoolwork in that compulsory education scheme?

Come to think of it, it's like going to the unemployment office and them telling you "You have a choice of job A, job B or job C. All three jobs will pay you and you will accrue college tuition as part of your salary. Which job do you want?"

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Do you think receiving an education constitutes "servitude"?

Nope, that's not the analogy he's making.

Do you think that being rigid and purposefully unwilling to see another's side, just for the sake of giving someone a hard time, is a good characteristic of an educator?

( it's a great characteristic for a debator, and adds needed conflict and opportunities for quips)

It's normal, technical types hate analogies. Heck, they even hate it when someone restates a concept using another set of wording. Taking the next step to finding value in a comparison is way out of the comfort zone.

So now the argument has changed from the issue of mandatory service to that of a person's character? If Kallend is the worst guy ever, the issue still is the Constitutionality of mandatory militay service. Care to come back to it?

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

His only point is education is not voluntary for the children, or really even the parents of those children under law.

Center bull!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

That's in the most abstract sense. So abstract that it borders on inanity.

If you have trouble with a very abstract concept and taking the presenter's position from it for rational discussion, I wouldn't call the other person the one with issues of 'inanity' - to use your words.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

Please don't make the argument that libs are lock-stepped. A leberal can be pro-gun and be considered liberal, but a conservative can't be pro-choice and be considered a neo-con.

Nuts - the statement here is just as true - "Please don't make the argument that conservatives are lock-stepped. A conservative can be pro-choice and be considered a conservative, but a liberal can't be pro-gun and still be considered a REAL liberal."

Why are you people so blind to the fact that the two parties are identical in practice? Both have just enough flexibility from their nutjob extreme positions to collect almost exactly 50% of the populace.

It works that way by natural design. It HAS to, even with our relatively small population. Anything else would be an extreme deviation from human nature.

Yet the lemmings continue to think that THEIR party is the party of truth and light and honesty. It's like third graders with a clubhouse.

Quote

Nuts

Why is this neccesary?

Quote

Why are you people so blind to the fact that the two parties are identical in practice? Both have just enough flexibility from their nutjob extreme positions to collect almost exactly 50% of the populace.

50%? Many time there is a landslide of populous vote and/or electoral vote, so where is this consistent?

The issue I raised was that there is so much flexibility within the liberals, yet you can't go to a Republican fucntion and start talking about pro-abortion, anti-guns, pro-social programs, etc... You would be lynched if you did that at a neo-caon rally, whereas the dems allow for variations within their party.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

So now the argument has changed from the issue of mandatory service to that of a person's character?

irony score 9.9 - coming from you calling mnealtx 'inane'

Kallend and I swap friendly jabs all the time. He's a big boy. And if you work with technical types, you see the nit pickiness all the time - it's what nerds find fun in everyday conversation.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[likearock 2]

Quote

Then explain how the Draft was legal. I see no difference between it and a mandatory Service Obligation. I think this type of requirement would be extremely beneficial to the US. I also believe it should be extended as an immigration requirement to anyone desiring to be a U.S. resident.

But, as I said already, it will never happen because liberals will find all kinds of reasons and construct a mulitute of hypotheticals as to why it isn't fair. D.O.A.

You mean liberals like the ones in this group?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

The issue I raised was that there is so much flexibility within the liberals, yet you can't go to a Republican fucntion and start talking about pro-abortion, anti-guns, pro-social programs, etc... You would be lynched if you did that at a neo-caon rally, whereas the dems allow for variations within their party.

I understand your position, but disagree. You can generate a pretty large list of taboo topics for both parties. With liberals, there are a lot of special interest single platform idealists - you can go to any of these places and discuss 'other' issues from all sides and have fun - because they don't care. just like going to an anti-abortion rally and discussing public health care you'll find all sorts of views.

I try not to stereotype people from either party by the biases attributed to the extremes of either. try it, you'll like it. We're (cons and dems) are all not as polarized as you think.

- as for not getting lynched at a democratic party, did you see Paul Wellstone's (Dem Senator from Minnesota) funeral? and many other.

Sorry, I refuse to wallow in political stereotyping. It's too easy and too lazy. People are more individual than that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

That's in the most abstract sense. So abstract that it borders on inanity.

If you have trouble with a very abstract concept and taking the presenter's position from it for rational discussion, I wouldn't call the other person the one with issues of 'inanity' - to use your words.

As with all abstract comparisons, they're not for the sake of anything useful, just parody; that was my point.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

So now the argument has changed from the issue of mandatory service to that of a person's character?

irony score 9.9 - coming from you calling mnealtx 'inane'

Kallend and I swap friendly jabs all the time. He's a big boy. And if you work with technical types, you see the nit pickiness all the time - it's what nerds find fun in everyday conversation.

I didn't call him inane, just that the concept was inane. Read a bit.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

As with all abstract comparisons, they're not for the sake of anything useful, just parody; that was my point.

I can agree with that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I didn't call him inane, just that the concept was inane. Read a bit.

I didn't call him purposefully contentious, just that digressions on analogies are nit-picky. read a bit

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[SpeedRacer 1]

Quote

So the founding fathers were a bunch of liberals?

Yes, they were! haven't you heard the phrase "Jeffersonian Liberal"?

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

I didn't call him inane, just that the concept was inane. Read a bit.

I didn't call him purposefully contentious, just that digressions on analogies are nit-picky. read a bit

Again, Show where I was addressing the person and not the issue. The statement that it is the same to compare kids in school -to- young people in compulsary service is inane.

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Quote

So the founding fathers were a bunch of liberals?

Yes, they were! haven't you heard the phrase "Jeffersonian Liberal"?

OK, so that's one; does he represent all foundng fathers?

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

His only point is education is not voluntary for the children, or really even the parents of those children under law.

Center bull!

There are TWO words involved, "involuntary" and "servitude". Being in school is NOT servitude (unless some form of compulsory public service is required for graduation, which strikes me as highly dubious constitutionally). Doing your physics homework is not servitude.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Again, Show where I was addressing the person and not the issue. The statement that it is the same to compare kids in school -to- young people in compulsary service is inane.

all right, chief, whatever you want - if you want to have it all or nothing it's no point in debating

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

There are TWO words involved, "involuntary" and "servitude". Being in school is NOT servitude (unless some form of compulsory public service is required for graduation, which strikes me as highly dubious constitutionally). Doing your physics homework is not servitude.

Your opinion, just as I can argue the opposite point.



Interestingly, Maryland has instituted a service requirement for graduation.

Quote

Maryland is the first state in the nation to require high school students to engage in service-learning activities as a condition of graduation.

Each of the 24 school districts in Maryland implement the service-learning graduation requirement differently, because they tailor the specifics of their program to their local community.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

There are TWO words involved, "involuntary" and "servitude". Being in school is NOT servitude (unless some form of compulsory public service is required for graduation, which strikes me as highly dubious constitutionally). Doing your physics homework is not servitude.

Your opinion, just as I can argue the opposite point.



Interestingly, Maryland has instituted a service requirement for graduation.

Quote

Maryland is the first state in the nation to require high school students to engage in service-learning activities as a condition of graduation.

Each of the 24 school districts in Maryland implement the service-learning graduation requirement differently, because they tailor the specifics of their program to their local community.

OK, who are you serving when you are in physics or math class at school?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.