Holocaust Denier Jailed

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Yeah... Ithink it's a shame that this cowardly, anti-semitic, racist can't be jailed in a suitable place as a sort of living-history exhibit!

"Those who fight monsters must be careful that in the process, they do not become monsters themselves."

Isn't that what you're being, by wishing on someone the thing you're angry about him doing?

And what's more, this is not a guy who DID the holocaust, he just DENIED it. Hardly the same as imprisoning jews as slaves and/or killing them. And yet you want him to serve in the equivalent of a jewish death-camp prison. Hmmph. You claim to have moral superiority here?

You support the criminalization of holding particular views that are anathema to you, and advocate for punishment so harsh that it crosses into torture. Who's the nazi sympathizer after all?


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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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A healthy democracy should never fear letting truth collide with error in the free marketplace of ideas.

I thought that there were some here who would benefit from reading this passage again. Thanks, Andy.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I have a feeling that if the KKK killed six million americans, we'd outlaw support of them as well. And almost everyone here would support it. Heck, even today a lot of people support blatant violations of the Fourth Amendment in the name of 'security' - and several people on this very board support prior restraint of organizations like NAMBLA. You can get away with a lot when people are scared.

Edited to add - I think in both cases the countries are wrong, but fear is a powerful motivator.

Glad you added the edit, bill, because it sure seemed like you were rationalizing this kind of a ban. Made me wonder if you would support the banning of specific political parties: they do that in other countries to guard against the re-rise of fascist control, too.

How far would you go?

Isn't fascist control, employed to prevent the rise of a fascist regime, sorta oxymoronic?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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True freedom of speech is meaningless if the principle only protects that speech which is popular. The true test of the existence of freedom of speech is in its protection of extremely unpopular, offensive, even inflammatory speech.

Crap (if not to say Sch****e). The freedom of speech exactly is reaching its limits the moment when laws are involved/touched. One of them f. e. in Germany is: Denial of Holocaust is punishable. Up to 5 years in jail. Period. Could be up to 30 yrs in Austria.

For me it it's fully acceptable.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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You grew up in a country that was ravaged by Nazism, and laws to prevent that from ever happening again have existed since before you were born.

And they've done such a wonderful job, haven't they? Is there not a neo-fascist/nazi movement alive in Germany? I've read things about youth acting all skinhead-y...

So much for the utility of ThoughtCrime.


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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[gofast_ER 0]

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.....

True freedom of speech is meaningless if the principle only protects that speech which is popular. The true test of the existence of freedom of speech is in its protection of extremely unpopular, offensive, even inflammatory speech.

Crap (if not to say Sch****e). The freedom of speech exactly is reaching its limits the moment when laws are involved/touched. One of them f. e. in Germany is: Denial of Holocaust is punishable. Up to 5 years in jail. Period. Could be up to 30 yrs in Austria.

For me it it's fully acceptable.

[rasmack 0]

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You mean that in Britan and Europe there exists blasphmy laws that cover only Christianity, and that people can't go around saying whatevber they like about Jews and their history but it is perfectly legal and the press shout 'acceptable' to insult Islam. Well they've got a point haven't they!

Small correction. The basphemy legislation (which I personally believe should be done away with all together) at least in Denmark prohibits blasphemy against any religion.

Interestingly enough the enraged muslims couldn't wait for the authorities to decide whether or not to press charges over the now infamous cartoons. That decision has still not been made.

Edit: I should add that the nazis aren't outlawed in Denmark. Denying the holocaust here will just make people shake their heads at you.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Andy9o8 2]

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Whats that old dude that got put away because he said the earth wasnt the center of the universe?

You're probably thinking of Galileo.

[Darius11 12]

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The criminalization of thought, belief and expression is an abomination.

I don't give a shit what this guy said about the Holocaust:
Only idiots don't believe it happened.
Only idiots pay any attention to those who say it didn't happen.

Plus, if no one is allowed to speak their minds about believing the Holocaust did not happen, that precludes any possibility of having a public dialogue during which such people would be exposed for being ridiculously incorrect in their views!


But the idea of fighting a return of fascism by using the fascist technique of outlawing certain ideologies, thoughts, or statements is just so incredibly stupid and paradoxical that I can't believe enough educated people voted for it that it became a law.

What the fuck are they thinking over there? "Uh, gee, it's dangerous to deny the Holocaust because that could result in the rise of a fascist dictatorship again... so... we'll ban certain speech (*hint*: that's something fascists would do!) to guard against it.


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I agree with what you wrote.

We need to decide if we believe in free speech or not.

We can not have it both ways. We can’t apply rules or beliefs to people based on if we like them or not.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[billvon 3,118]

>Whats that old dude that got put away because he said the earth
>wasnt the center of the universe?

Giordano Bruno was executed by the church for his heretical teachings, including the earth being just a small part of an infinite universe.

[Andy9o8 2]

In 1633 Galileo was put on trial by the Inquisition for teaching and supporting Copernicus's theory that the Earth was not the center of the universe, but rotated on its axis and orbited the Sun. Here's one account: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/galileo/galileoaccount.html

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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We can’t apply rules or beliefs to people based on if we like them or not.

Sure we can, or else it wouldnt be the law.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Darius11 12]

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We can’t apply rules or beliefs to people based on if we like them or not.

Sure we can, or else it wouldnt be the law.

Actually we can’t.

Just LAW is something that is applied to all and is not biased on religion, or race.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Then why was he jailed? Why cant gay people get married? Why cant kids pray in school?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[billvon 3,118]

>Why cant kids pray in school?

Kids can pray in school. They just can't get the teacher to make everyone pray.

[Darius11 12]

He shouldn’t have been jailed that’s my point.

As for the other issues start another thread.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[lisamariewillbe 1]

You said he cant, not that he shouldnt... I said yes we can cause its the law, you said no we cant.... pretty simple to understand.

He was jailed for deniel of the holocaust, its not a matter of "can he or should he" but a matter of he did.

Get it?

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Maybe it’s just my posts or you like to fight and argue

Like you as a person, disagree with you on flag burning and this... I know there is a language barrier but the words shouldnt and cant are easy to understand.

BTW personally I dont care if he rots in jail, my grandmother lived most of her life with a number on her arm and Ill be damned if I ignore the past and accept others ignoring it as well.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Darius11 12]

It seems others get what I am saying but you always miss the point.

Maybe you should skip my posts from now on.



Do you know how to say Shouldn’t and can’t in Farsi with out looking it up on google? Didn’t think so.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

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You said he cant, not that he shouldnt... I said yes we can cause its the law, you said no we cant.... pretty simple to understand.

He was jailed for deniel of the holocaust, its not a matter of "can he or should he" but a matter of he did.

Get it?

I certainly don't. You wrote that the law can be selectively applied based on whether or not we like the person. That is in fact in direct opposition to the concept of 'law.' Law avoids emotion, which clearly clouds your judgement on this particular matter.

And in America, what the Austrians are doing would not stand up to any proper application of the 1st Amendment. Not to say a judge or twenty might violate it, but the ACLU would be marching into court the very same day.

[rehmwa 2]

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Law avoids emotion,

in a perfect world, but the "writing of new laws" nowadays seemed to be firmly built on a foundation of reactionism and emotion (that castle will sink into the swamp 3 or 4 times)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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And in America, what the Austrians are doing would not stand up to any proper application of the 1st Amendment.

That case isnt in america though, we can not expect them to live by our rules and our laws. They are not infringing on my freedoms or the freedoms of any american on this soil. It is a law there. Maybe it shouldnt be a law in some opinions but it is still the law there.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[kelpdiver 2]

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That case isnt in america though, we can not expect them to live by our rules and our laws. They are not infringing on my freedoms or the freedoms of any american on this soil. It is a law there.

Sometimes I'll buy the notion that other cultures can do things differently, but I view speech as a basic human right, so I'm at least going to blow some air over it.

(And laugh at the Austrians that got upset that Arnold is a Republican governor)

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Yes speech is a basic human right. Freedom of speech is not.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[kelpdiver 2]

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Yes speech is a basic human right. Freedom of speech is not.

ummmm......

I guess I have to be explicit. What's the difference?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

In some countries we are free to speak or minds regardless if it is of a popular opinion, in other countries it gets you jailed.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this