Cartoons????

[falxori 0]

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There are many reasons why the peace talks have failed. You can't only blame the Palestinians

i don't.
this incident you've quoted was just an excuse, pretty similar to these cartoons which suddenly after 4 months became an issue.
when you want to fight, you'll find something to fight over.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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Again who do you blame?

you can bring a million quotes that say its all Israel's fault and i can bring a million quotes that say otherwise, it will lead us no where.

if you want to focus on Arafat, he has stated many times (only in arabic speeched, btw) that the peace process is just another way of getting things and that an armed conflict is always an option when peaceful negotiation dont get you all the way.
Israel was willing to settle, he wasn't and on top of it all he kept his violent options alive by letting Hamas, Islamic Jihad and even factions of his own fatah movemnet continue.
now these violent groups are too strong to be stopped and the result is Hamas winning the election.
at least they are open and honest about not accepting any compromise.

and if you want to list sections of the Oslo accords that were not implemented, there are more than enough in the palestinian side.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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So could Arafat have "controlled" his people? Yes, if he had been offered a decent peace, something that really answered the aspirations of a people who want a state - a real state, not an American-Israeli subject nation.

But the real question was not asked. Why couldn't Barak control the Israeli "security forces" who shot and killed more than 100 Palestinians, including children as young as nine, who fired missiles into a Palestinian apartment block and who then - according to an uncritical BBC reporter - threatened to use machine-guns? Couldn't Barak control the Israelis who - just like their Palestinian neighbours - went on an ethnic burning campaign in Nazareth?
by Robert Fisk, New Statesman, October 16, 2000

was this an excuse as well?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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was this an excuse as well?

i don't know what are the events discussed in your quote but i'm sure they are biased and full of half truths as always...

100 palestinians shot? who were they? when was it? how many of them were innocent civilians carrying AK47s or preparing the next suicide bomb attack?
including children? where? were they the target? what were the circumstances of the incident? how many suicide attacks in Israel happened just before the operation? how many were planned at the moment?

i'm sorry, i'm not impressed by quotes. as i said there are a million quotes to either side.
all i know is that Arafat double game led to the rise of terrorism to degree where Hamas has won the election (democratically), rockets fly out of Gaza even though there is not a single israeli there and that the sane voices on the Palestinian side are getting weaker and weaker.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[dorbie 0]

Don't fret, Fisk is a notorious liar.

[dorbie 0]

Darius, where & how does it end?

[Darius11 12]

Really?


I don't know him to say he is or not. I just try to post quotes from people who are not related to any Arab media as any thing they would say would be scrutinized.

But since you are so sure was he fired for his lies or is there any proof that he is a liar?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

I wish I had the answer.

I think that’s the main issue no one has the answer.

Many times I have thought removing all boarders would be a good solution. I think if the average Israeli and the average Palestinian were given equal opportunity to have a life they would get along.

One thing I am sure of. People who are allowed to have lives and have hope tend to not like violence and war.

We all want the same thing no matter what country or religion we are from.
We want a chance to have a productive life, we want safety, and we want the same for our children.

There is a lot that goes in to that but that’s the basics.


I think the Israelis need to be more open and less hateful. They also need to realize they are living on land that was not theirs 58 years ago. It is land that they took.

The Palestinians need to realize no mater right or wrong Israel is not going anywhere. No matter how they got the land they have it now. They need to have a strong and honest government that can control any out laws. Then they need help to boost the standard of living for all of their citizens.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Newbie 0]

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All I am trying to point out is this.

That the Danish reporters did something offensive and now the Iranian media is trying to do something equally as offensive.

I think the cartoons were offensive myself, but 2 wrongs do not a right make. Besides which, if Iran wanted to do something as "wrong" as the Danes had done, they would have ridiculed Christianity, the predominant Euro/Danish religion. Again, what have the jews - and specifically the holocaust - got to do with anything?

Iran is doing nothing more than using this as a means to attack the jews (or Israeli's specifically - who are all jews). If they wanted to do something "equally as bad", they would have fought on a level playing field and set up a competition to see who could ridicule the Christian God, or Jesus or something.

Again can you, or anyone, please explain what this whole episode has got to do with jews/Israel?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[falxori 0]

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Many times I have thought removing all boarders would be a good solution. I think if the average Israeli and the average Palestinian were given equal opportunity to have a life they would get along.

let me refine that. the average Israeli will have the best life Israel as a state can offer its citizens and the average Palestinian will have the best life the palestinian state can offer its citizens.
this land will have to be divided and each nation will take care of its own.
my historic link to places like Hebron and Nablus are as storng as the palestinians, but i accept the fact that my family will not be getting back there anytime soon.

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They also need to realize they are living on land that was not theirs 58 years ago. It is land that they took.

neither it was Palestinian. it was british, ottomans... roman and guess what, israeli again.
so why stop 60 years ago and not go 2000 ?

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The Palestinians need to realize no mater right or wrong Israel is not going anywhere

exactly. just as i'm willing to give up parts of this land which are very dear to me. we're stuck here together and have to make the best of it and compromise. most of the israelis have realized that and the others who don't are not calling the shots. I can't say the same about the palestinians and now after the election where Hamas got the people's vote, it doesnt look any better

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[dorbie 0]

http://www.slate.com/id/2135499/nav/tap2/

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Darius....I don't know who else to ask this but, why all the upset over cartoons....in a newspaper of a country that is not anywhere close to muslim dominated.

Does it not show that Muslims are prone to violence?

If a newspaper prints a charicature of a politician, can that politician then torch the newspaper building?

I think all this has shown more what a great many muslims truly stand for. Which is, if you don't like something, resort to violence.

[sundevil777 102]

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But usually when people can’t come back with facts they call you a racist. I always make sure to point to the Israelis and couldn’t give a fuck what there religion is. I see them as the murderers they are. Sorry you’re blinded.

The Israelis are at war with the PA. War involves the use of violent force to achieve objectives. War will always result in innocent lives lost. War doesn't have to be waged between equally strong adversaries. To play victim because the PA doesn't have the military capacity of Israel is just that, playing victim. The PA should not declare a war when they know they have no chance to win a real war. With all of the billions that the PA has received over the years, they should have been able to buy better weapons. They should try getting some of the money back from Arafat's wife. But they really just want to get media attention and sympathy. The are very skilled at doing that. The PA is fortunate that Israel is willing to wage war in such a limited manner. This is part of the reason why it has gone on so long, world public opinion has been on the side of the poor, oppressed PA for so long that Israel doesn't feel that it can wage a real war against an enemy that vows to destroy them.

On the subject of Nazis, what side did the Arab world support during WWII?

The PA could have had peace, I refer you again to our middle east envoy while Clinton tried to help them settle things, is there anything you dispute about his characterization of events? He was a witness to it all:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50830,00.html

When the leadership of the PA has the courage that Sadat had, there will be a real peace.

I don't think you'll be able to find much from Israel that compares to the filth you can see spewing out of the arab world's mouth on the memri site:

http://www.memri.org/video/

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[pop 0]

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Darius....I don't know who else to ask this but, why all the upset over cartoons....in a newspaper of a country that is not anywhere close to muslim dominated.

Does it not show that Muslims are prone to violence?

If a newspaper prints a charicature of a politician, can that politician then torch the newspaper building?

I think all this has shown more what a great many muslims truly stand for. Which is, if you don't like something, resort to violence.

And why conveniently 4 moths later?

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[Darius11 12]

I think your right.

It doesn’t show Muslims in a great light at all.
And personally I wouldn’t care what is printed as a Joke or whatever. As I said before in another thread IMHO the best reaction would have been no reaction at all. Who cares what anyone thinks or says about your beliefs when it comes down to it is your beliefs, and if your fait is strong you should not worry about small things that don’t even matter.

I think it is absolutely stupid to show such a violent reaction to just a fucking drawing.

The only thing I tell my self is that maybe it is because of the times, and Muslims feel the whole world is against them. I also think that most Muslims feel that their beliefs are not taken seriously.
There is also a feeling that no is there to fight for them. Most Islamic countries have the worst governments you can imagine. That is also another reason why so many find leadership elsewhere.

But all that aside it is still the worst possible reaction you can have. They are just drawings.

We Muslims need to pick our fights and a drawing is defiantly not a fight I would have picked.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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neither it was Palestinian. it was british, ottomans... roman and guess what, israeli again.
so why stop 60 years ago and not go 2000 ?

We can go back 2500 years where almost all of the Middle East belonged to Iran

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[pop 0]

Could you imagine if Mexico dared to come and take Texas back? Please....

Truth is the land never belonged to Palestenians when it was give to Irael. Funny how after being on that land full of riches for thousands of years the Muslims still live in poverty in general. Must be Israel's fault.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[Darius11 12]

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Truth is the land never belonged to Palestenians when it was give to Irael. Funny how after being on that land full of riches for thousands of years the Muslims still live in poverty in general. Must be Israel's fault.

No one is blaming Israel for poverty the poverty happens because of the corrupt government that run the countries.
I blame Israeli for the inhuman way it has treated the Palestinians.

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Could you imagine if Mexico dared to come and take Texas back? Please

As for my post above yours that was a replay to what Falxori said here

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neither it was Palestinian. it was british, ottomans... roman and guess what, israeli again.
so why stop 60 years ago and not go 2000 ?

but let me guess your one sided view didn't see that did it.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[pop 0]

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but let me guess your one sided view didn't see that did it.

My one sided view wouldn't let me blow myself up in the name of God. That's just messed up!

Poverty leads to frustration. Frustration leads to violence. Hitler took over Germany during hard times and promised to give the Germans a better life. His rhtoric stated that the Jews and the fags and the gypsies and basically all non-Germans were the problem that caused the grief Germany was going through.

You think if people in Palestine had the same opportunities to succeed in life that the people in in North America do, they would really care about the minimal of land that the Gaza strip covers. No, they are frustrated and tired of living in poverty. Why not blame the Jews and the US...and hey lets get Denmark and the rest of the world on board as well.

How about taking some responsibility??

Extremist Muslims by nature are violent, and they use religion as an excuse. The rhetoric has no place in this world if we want to see peace.

7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer

[Darius11 12]

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My one sided view wouldn't let me blow myself up in the name of God. That's just messed up!

The whole discussion on why people decide to kill them selves for a cause they believe in is along one witch I will not get in to now but have before many times.

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Poverty leads to frustration. Frustration leads to violence. Hitler took over Germany during hard times and promised to give the Germans a better life. His rhtoric stated that the Jews and the fags and the gypsies and basically all non-Germans were the problem that caused the grief Germany was going through.

You think if people in Palestine had the same opportunities to succeed in life that the people in in North America do, they would really care about the minimal of land that the Gaza strip covers. No, they are frustrated and tired of living in poverty.

I don’t claim to know what ifs, I agree with you that if the Palestinians had a good life they would not be so willing to risk it with violence and what was stolen from them might not seem as much.

Poverty always breeds violence and corruption.

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Extremist Muslims by nature are violent, and they use religion as an excuse. The rhetoric has no place in this world if we want to see peace.

All extremists result to violence. Catholics kill doctors that perform abortions, PETA members throw blood at people’s faces that ware fur coats, and an Israeli kills 24 Muslims inside there holy masque. It is not the nature of just Muslims extremists it is the nature of all extremists.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[bch7773 0]

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The Palestinian method is the only method they have. They target civilians as the Israeli government and military is very good at protecting them selves.
I bet if they were capable of hitting the military they would.

man my boss pissed me off today and embarresed me in a meeting. Since I can't get back at him officially, I'm gonna go kill his children. With a bomb. Its the only method I have. That ok with you darius?

I'm done with this thread. too many lies and bs just pisses me off.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Darius11 12]

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The Palestinian method is the only method they have. They target civilians as the Israeli government and military is very good at protecting them selves.
I bet if they were capable of hitting the military they would.

man my boss pissed me off today and embarresed me in a meeting. Since I can't get back at him officially, I'm gonna go kill his children. With a bomb. Its the only method I have. That ok with you darius?

I'm done with this thread. too many lies and bs just pisses me off.

Wow so embarrassment in front of your coworkers is the same as having your children murdered, your house destroyed and so on.


You must really love your job.

And if you see BS or any misinformation point them out you will do all of us good, but then again you love your work so much I am sure your too busy LOL

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[diverborg 0]

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Poverty always breeds violence and corruption.

I tend to think violence and corruption breed poverty first. Then maybe the poverty reinforces the violence. Thats about all the insight that I have. Of course I have been drinking. So let me know if this makes any sense.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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To compare Israelis to Nazi is pretty ignorant. EVen a true Jew hater wouldnt compare the two.

It is true that the Israelis have used torture against Palestinians during their ages-long conflict with them.

Aren't those who fight for the "good" side supposed to hold themselves above such tactics?

Of course the Israelis are not attempting a GENOCIDE against them (as the Nazis did to the Jews), but it is not out of line to point out where they cross from being clearly good guys to using the tactics of the evil guys. They do that plenty. Some say it's justified but some say it's never justified.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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This is good...


Moscow museum to exhibit Mohammed cartoons
MOSCOW, Feb. 7 (UPI) -- A Moscow museum has announced it will exhibit the entire series of cartoons of Mohammed that have caused riots throughout the Islamic world.

Yury Samodurov, director of the Sakharov Museum and Public Center, said on Russian television that the center was ready to organize a public exhibition of the cartoons satirizing the founder of Islam that originally were published in a Danish newspaper, Pravda.ru reported Monday.

And an update from our news correspondents in Russia: The Sakharov Museum and Public Center was leveled today by four coordinated suicide bomb blasts which destroyed the building, killed 175 people and maimed 214 others, and severely damaged numerous nearby buildings, as well as vehicles. Al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for the attack, which was directed at the museum for having the audacity to exercise freedom and criticize the homicidal predisposition of muslims around the world.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"