America; democracy, dynasty, or dictatorship?

[Misternatural 0]

The founding fathers engineered and constructed a brilliant system of government as documented in the U.S. Constitution , 200 plus years later it's utility is unsurpassed on a world stage.

I submit the idea that we are entering a period where the fundamentals of the Constitution are unwittingly being slowly eroded and Democracy as we know it is evolving into something else. Here are some postulates;

Dynasty- The Bush family wields unprecedented power in the history of this country. George the 1st was underestimated as a "whimp" during his rule but has been vindicated by his sons Jeb and his brother George the 2nd, who no doubt was ushered into the presidency during back room deals made by powerful family allies in Washington. A prime example of nepotism. Next in line? Jeb Bush. As a result the War against Islamic nations are an ongoing family vendetta conducted at the expense of the U.S. military.

Dictatorship- Recent interviews with retired senior staff reveal the extent of unbridled presidential power; for example the pressure Cheney put on the CIA to back up the WMD claims so the President could sell the 2nd gulf war for the covert purpose of empire building. Additionally, using the constant fear of attack to bolster support for the republican party...a tactic known to be used by past dictatorships to maintain control. Lastly the use of the NSA to spy on U.S. citizens reminiscent of the Gestapo.

The result of these possibilities? Democracy fades like the ink on the Constitution.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[rasmack 0]

Dude... Invoking Godwin's law in the first post of a thread. Nothing short of impressive.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[mr2mk1g 10]

How about NONE of the above? The USA is a Republic.

[meltdown 0]

Oh brother, another one of these. *yawn*. Now I remember that this is why I rarely visit SC anymore.

[lawrocket 3]

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How about NONE of the above? The USA is a Republic.

Um, this post is exactly correct. We don't have a democracy. It wasn't intended to be. The only group of the feds that are elected by the "people" with majority vote are the House and Senators, and until 100 years ago, Senators were elected by representatives.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[crwtom 0]

Quote

I submit the idea that we are entering a period where the fundamentals of the Constitution are unwittingly being slowly eroded and Democracy as we know it is evolving into something else. Here are some postulates;

It's a sort-of and de-facto Elective Consitutaional Monarchy.
After getting rid of George the IIIrd a couple of hundred years
ago people have finally found back to George the IInd.

Among democracies in inudstrialized countries the mystique
and reverence around the office of president is quite uniquely
American. Hardly anyonen in the other countries would come
up with statements that you have to stand with your president
no matter what, that the chief exec is a symbol of the nation and
must not be insulted and stuff like that.

The difference of course the presidential system that combines
head of state and chief executive, and is which replaced in
almost all western and eastern democracies by paliamentary
systems now-a-days, after countires had to reinvent themselves
over and over again after being consumed by mutliple world wars
and revolutions.

The US system, in contrast, is stuck in the state-of-art of 1789,
following the untested and rather schematic philosophy of Baron
de Montesquieu, and a desire to make General Washington
some kind-of semi-monarch.

Of course there are also European monachies, and insulting the
moarch there is also no small matter. However, they don't claim
to be republics and the monarch rarely has any powers. Prime
ministers, on the other hand, have basically no "aura" that would
that they can hide behind.

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Jasmin 0]

Empire..and we know what happened to the empires of Rome and the Mongols....

xj

"I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with the earth...but then I wouldn't recommend picking a fight with a car either, and that's having tried both."

[kelpdiver 2]

probably need to look up all 3 words in the dictionary.

Jan 1993-2001 pretty much invalidate the latter two.

[rushmc 23]

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The founding fathers engineered and constructed a brilliant system of government as documented in the U.S. Constitution , 200 plus years later it's utility is unsurpassed on a world stage.

I submit the idea that we are entering a period where the fundamentals of the Constitution are unwittingly being slowly eroded and Democracy as we know it is evolving into something else. Here are some postulates;

Dynasty- The Bush family wields unprecedented power in the history of this country. George the 1st was underestimated as a "whimp" during his rule but has been vindicated by his sons Jeb and his brother George the 2nd, who no doubt was ushered into the presidency during back room deals made by powerful family allies in Washington. A prime example of nepotism. Next in line? Jeb Bush. As a result the War against Islamic nations are an ongoing family vendetta conducted at the expense of the U.S. military.

Dictatorship- Recent interviews with retired senior staff reveal the extent of unbridled presidential power; for example the pressure Cheney put on the CIA to back up the WMD claims so the President could sell the 2nd gulf war for the covert purpose of empire building. Additionally, using the constant fear of attack to bolster support for the republican party...a tactic known to be used by past dictatorships to maintain control. Lastly the use of the NSA to spy on U.S. citizens reminiscent of the Gestapo.

The result of these possibilities? Democracy fades like the ink on the Constitution.

It is becoming evident that your NSA Gestapo statement is null and void.....based on the present info ......The rest is mostly subjective on your part...and some is out and out untrue

http://www.morgancunningham.net/downloads/article_18.pdf

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

Quote

It is becoming evident that your NSA Gestapo statement is null and void.....

Trying to keep your occupation secret huh Or is it just the career you want to move into... either way.. its coming.. get in on the ground floor now.

[ViperPilot 0]

Quote

George the 2nd, who no doubt was ushered into the presidency during back room deals made by powerful family allies in Washington

Or you could simply look at the data and see that Bush was elected by the people (in the 2nd case, he beat Kerry by a few million votes on the popular side of things). Nonetheless, as lawrocket pointed out, we have a Republic and that's just how it is. So there were no backroom deals...unless you think the evil conservative conspiracy personally coherced over 52 million Americans.

[Misternatural 0]

I used the word postulates for a reason, these are just ideas meant to get some discussion going here, It's better than letting the Govt. yank us around - like a good little tax paying dog on a short chain.
Somewhere between the extremes lies the truth and since none of us here are Washington insiders, how are we to know what is really going on in their heads. Granted we do not live in a true Democracy but a lot of blood was spilled to forge and maintain fundamentals of the Constitution, it's nice to know that some of us are still paying attention.
But hey, if the NSA wants to park a van outside my house and listen while my girlfriend and I fuck- well, the least they can do is DELIVER A PIZZA .......um, we like mushrooms and peppers please, thankyou.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[rushmc 23]

Quote

I used the word postulates for a reason, these are just ideas meant to get some discussion going here, It's better than letting the Govt. yank us around - like a good little tax paying dog on a short chain.
Somewhere between the extremes lies the truth and since none of us here are Washington insiders, how are we to know what is really going on in their heads. Granted we do not live in a true Democracy but a lot of blood was spilled to forge and maintain fundamentals of the Constitution, it's nice to know that some of us are still paying attention.
But hey, if the NSA wants to park a van outside my house and listen while my girlfriend and I fuck- well, the least they can do is DELIVER A PIZZA .......um, we like mushrooms and peppers please, thankyou.

I agree with most of your post so, in that light you might like watching this unfold (see link)
I know I am

http://www.givemeliberty.org/RTPLawsuit/Update2006-02-06.htm

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

The Bush family wields unprecedented power in the history of this country.

Gee. I think it was only 45 years ago that there was this certain president from Massachussetts who went by the name of "Jack." He had a younger brother who went by the name of "Bobby," but most people called him "Mr. Attorney General." Their younger brother was named Edward, but others called him, "Teddy" or "Senator Kennedy."

Why, there was this family called the "Roosevelts" who wielded some substantial power.

You could even make a colorable argument that there was another father/son tandem to be POTUS who went by the names "John" and "John Quincy."

The Bush family yields unprecedented power? I know, it's just an opinion. But similar to the opinion that "The Glock 9mm has unprecedented power for a handgun." It fails to take into account the .44,the .45, the .50....

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Additionally, using the constant fear of attack to bolster support for the republican party...a tactic known to be used by past dictatorships to maintain control

I seem to recall there was this president who was known as FDR. He actually had concentration camps (though we call them "internment camps" - I think "internship camps" would be a happier term [HUGZ!!!]) for our Japanese citizens because they were a threat.

And in the 1800s, the American presidents decided that, instead of merely keeping some steady surveillance on the Native Americans, it would be easier to just kill them all.

Now,I am not happy with warrantless searches. I'm a fairly civil libertarian kind of person. But this shit you've typed fails to take into account the relevant history of white men in America, said period of time being from roughly 1500-2000.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[rasmack 0]

He he... You rock!

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Misternatural 0]

Quote

Quote

How about NONE of the above? The USA is a Republic.

Um, this post is exactly correct. We don't have a democracy. It wasn't intended to be. The only group of the feds that are elected by the "people" with majority vote are the House and Senators, and until 100 years ago, Senators were elected by representatives.

Of course you like the notion of a "republic" - You're freekin republicans! "not that there's anything wrong with that" But I've got another one for you...Lobbyocracy, a facist govt. controlled by corporations. hey Halliburton, how you doin'?

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Of course you like the notion of a "republic" - You're freekin republicans!

(in Dr. Seuss form for you}

I'm sad to say,
I'm sad to report,
I do not belong to a
Party of that sort.

I'm libertarian,
So get that straight,
And I've been that way,
Since '88.

I don't blame corporations
Small or big
For this country's problems
Can you dig?

While you'll moan and bitch
About how much they suck
They'll make me rich
I'll make some bucks!

"Oil companies have record profits"
"Made off of all of us."
I just bought 100 shares of Exxon last week
I just got on THAT bus.

I hope the profits go even higher!
With dividend money maybe I can hire
A lobbyist for my favorite creed
Make an honest buck, more than I "need."

Don't moan about others who are doing better,
Just go about your business, or even better
Find out why they are so rich,
And do it like them, JUST DON'T BITCH!

Corporations aren't inherently as bad
As hippie pussywimps are sad
Maybe if you had a debree in engineering,
The price of that weed wouldn't be as searing

You can do more with that than a poly-sci degree.
I have one myself, and take it from me
It does no good, not one little bit
And I paid my money for that piece of shit

Degree that was merely a stepping stone
To my doctorate in law, now there is one
That shows me there's more than meets the eye
OF some anti-corporate hippie. Get a life.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Misternatural 0]

Hey you missed it..I spelled Fascism wrong..I expected you to catch that since you are much more familiar with Fascism than I am. you conservative libertarian scholar you. Anyway we shouid go do some target shooting sometime since I hunt for my own food to feed my "hippy" ass, don't judge me either. Instead read, George Orwells Animal Farm and reflect on how history repeats itself.



freedom of speech, freedom of speech, I want more freedom of speech ,sam I am.

Beware of the collateralizing and monetization of your desires.
D S #3.1415

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

Quote

George the 2nd, who no doubt was ushered into the presidency during back room deals made by powerful family allies in Washington

Or you could simply look at the data and see that Bush was elected by the people (in the 2nd case, he beat Kerry by a few million votes on the popular side of things). .

In 2000 Gore got more than 1/2 million MORE popular votes than Bush. Bush was not elected by the people, he was elected by the Electoral College.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Michele 1]

Jerry, you're on a roll. Well done!

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

Hey you missed it..I spelled Fascism wrong.

I rearly commetn unop tpoygrahpical erorrs. Sith ahppnes.

Quote

I expected you to catch that since you are much more familiar with Fascism than I am.

Yes, I am more familiar. It leads me to a profound understanding of what fascism really is. To paaphrase Lloyd Benson, "I've seen fascism. I know fascism. President Bush - You're no fascist."

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don't judge me either.

Amazingly, this is the single most fascist statement written on this thread. You see, in a non-fascist country, we can jusge who we want, when we want, how we want. We can even be wrong.

We don't have to be the allegorical horse of the proletariat, neighing, "Lawrocket is always right." We don't need to be the allegorical sheep, bleating "Corporations bad. Mom and pop good." Halliburton doesn't need to be considered Farmer Jones.

We aren't required to believe that all people are equal, but some are more equal than others.

Quote

nstead read, George Orwells Animal Farm and reflect on how history repeats itself.

I've read it. My interpretation of the book has changed (it was the 5th grade when I read it, and again while I was in college) in the last 20 years or so. My recollection is that the novel centered on the problems of becoming what we despise, and the price paid by people who blindly support those who think that others are working against the power structure for them. It turns out that they are only working for themselves.

Why not, instead, read Macchiavelli? How about Voltaire? The Wealth of Nations? The Communist Manifesto? The Federalist Papers?

Ever read Plato's Republic? That's the book that changed my outlook on life and the world. Check out the "allegory of the cave." It's easier to blame the corporations and to call the administration fascist than to see the light. Once stuck in your philosophy, you'll resist being freed.

Of course, it's more fun to read things like "The Way Things Ought to Be" By Limbaugh, or "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot." But these do nothing to add to legitimate, rational and well-reasoned political discourse, philosophy and thought.

Using the word, "facist" [sic] as you do indicates your baseline. So, rather than go into any real depth, the tone of the discourse was set. I was acting consistent with that tone.

Old Farmer Jones had a farm
E-I-E-I-O
And on that farm there died a commie
E-I-E-I-O

With a Beasts of England here
and a Beasts of Ireland there
Man is bad
Animals good
He was actually singing about Halliburton

Old Farmer Jones had a farm
E-I-E-I-O
And the animals took it over with force and violence
E-I-E-I-O
Napoleon here
And Squealer there
Here a Snowball
There a Boxer
Everywhere a proletariat

All the animals had their farm
E-I-E-I-O
Along the way they became farmer Jones
E-I-E-I-O
With a bitch bitch here
And a snivel snivel there
Here an evil corps
There an evil corp
Everywhere a fascism..

Old Napoleon had a dream,
yawn-i-yawn-i-barf.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Channman 2]

In 2000 Gore got more than 1/2 million MORE popular votes than Bush. Bush was not elected by the people, he was elected by the Electoral College.

The founding fathers new best, got to love the Electoral College.

[lawrocket 3]

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In 2000 Gore got more than 1/2 million MORE popular votes than Bush. Bush was not elected by the people, he was elected by the Electoral College.

The founding fathers new best, got to love the Electoral College.

And in Super Bowl 40, the Seattle Seahawks got 6 more first downs that the Pittsburgh Steelers. They had more total yards and passing yards. They played a better football game, as a whole, than did the Steelers.

It's too bad that score is kept by points scored.

The rules of the election game are the electoral college. Winning California by 1 vote has the same effect as winning California by 30 million votes. Those are the rules. They've been the rules for a while.

As I posted before, this ain't a democracy and it wasn't supposed to be, okay? We have democratic "principles" with some tinkering due to the clear problems with democracy.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

Of course you like the notion of a "republic" - You're freekin republicans!

No I'm not. I fall into the "none of the above" catagory again. I'm English; we don't even have a Republican party.

[kallend 2,151]

Quote

In 2000 Gore got more than 1/2 million MORE popular votes than Bush. Bush was not elected by the people, he was elected by the Electoral College.

The founding fathers new best, got to love the Electoral College.

I wasn't complaining, just pointing out the error in the prior post. Play by the rules. The President is not elected by the people, the founding fathers didn't trust the people to do it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.