Andrea Yates walked today after killing 5 of her kids..

[Nightingale 0]

She didn't have post partum depression. She had post partum psychosis. Huge difference. Symptoms of PPP can mimic schizophrenia. Someone with extreme PPP is insane; they don't just "get sad sometimes."

[Darius11 12]

Is that a legitimate excuse for murdering 5 young kids and not at least serving life in prison?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Nightingale 0]

If she's found insane, she's not responsible. I don't think you understand the complete lack of reason and logic that comes with psychosis, that people hear things and see things that aren't there, and have no perception of reality. If they don't know what's real and what's not, how can they be held responsible for a crime that requires that they know what they're doing?




edited for grammar

[RhondaLea 4]

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Some will argue that is not true, and it is indeed, part of the problem. Reversed sexism, one mindset where women are innocent victims all the time, and men the miscreants.

That's ridiculous. Or more to the point, those who say that are ridiculous.

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The only thing a man has to do is say he does not like the extreme turn feminism has taken, to be seen as misogynystic.

What if a woman says it...slightly modified, that is:

I do not like the extreme turn some feminists have taken. The pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction. We still have the same problems we always did, and now we have created worse problems. Making the lives of men miserable does not make the lives of women better.

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Sometimes they do (kill their off spring), get over it, and realize it.

Men and women can both be really evil and violent.

Men and women both can be evil and violent, but in most cases, when mothers (and fathers) kill their children, something has gone very wrong in the killing parent's mind.

That is not to say that there have not been women (and men) who have killed their children purely for the perceived benefit to themselves. The mother who strapped her kids into the car and rolled them into the pond comes to mind. As does the father in Pennsylvania who killed his son and himself because his son's mother succeeded in changing his name. But this is rare.

More often, it takes a break from reality for a parent to kill a child.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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If she's found insane, she's not responsible. I don't think you understand the complete lack of reason and logic that comes with psychosis, that people hear things and see things that aren't there, and have no perception of reality. If you don't know what's real and what's not, how can they be held responsible for a crime that requires that you know what you're doing?

My father had a psychotic break when I was a kid. Here's an anecdote:

My mother had prepared the dog food (table scraps mixed with Gravy Train and warm water), and put it on the windowsill outside. When she came back about an hour later, it was gone.

As it turned out, my father, who had already had dinner, ate the dogs' dinner. Why? He felt he had to. He believed the animals were going to save him.

Sometimes, the logic of a crazy person is internally consistent, but in this case, we don't even see that, except perhaps to the extent that the more he made himself like a dog, the more likely it was that the dogs would rescue him.

This is a humorous story in a way, but not all psychosis is so funny or so harmless.

What you need to understand is that the way his mind worked at the time, this was reality.

My grandfather ended up calling the State Police when my father started shooting a shotgun up into the sky. I never got an explanation for why he did that, but obviously in his mind, there was something up there that needed to be shot.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Darius11 12]

If she was crazy did she get crazy in one sec. or was she crazy her whol life she just hid it?

So she acts normal enough not to raise any alarms but all of a sudden BOOM she goes nuts and kills her kids?


I know about mental illness but I didn’t know it happened so quickly

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Nightingale 0]

She's had mental problems most of her life, but this particular episode was triggered by having a baby, and got worse over the weeks since the delivery. PPP is not something like have the baby and you're instantly crazy. It appears over days to weeks, and the person goes from normal to behaving oddly to full-blown psychosis. Sometimes it's gradual, sometimes not so gradual. Depends on the person and whether or not they had mental illness in the past that could be triggered or increased by the hormone fluxuations of having a baby.

[wmw999 2,589]

Her insanity was well-documented; it was brought on by a combination of isolation and the hormones resulting from pregnancy and birth. She had been in a mental hospital shortly before, and had been taken off Haldol (a VERY powerful anti-psychotic) even less time before the murders.

Sometimes you can't just wish yourself better. She should have had full-time help, and medication. But instead she was in the kind of family where "we take care of our own" (i.e. no help needed).

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[juanesky 0]

Ridiculous?

I find that a little puzzling, as you agree with me that the pendulum has swung too far in the opposite direction.

Just an example, the latest and greatest child molesters/pedophiles, that happened to be women, will usually get off with a light sentencing.

Double standards. We need to diferent sets of laws for man and woman .Leaves room for thinking along the lines, wasn't that precisely what the women's liberation front was wanting all along, equal opportunity?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Darius11 12]

I just can't see her ever being free. The least she should get is life in prison IMHO

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't get it. Are you defending not giving life sentences -- if you won't advocate execution -- for murderers?

Our society sees different punishments as suitable for murder, depending on the circumstances.

A husband that comes home to find his wife ass deep in someone else and kills her gets a lower sentence than someone who bought life insurance for her, then hacked her up and then drives 300 miles to sink her in the ocean. Intent and premeditation are key differences. Crazy people may lack both.

Should skydivers be given life if their mistakes take out another jumper? Talk about slippery slopes.

[RhondaLea 4]

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Just an example, the latest and greatest child molesters/pedophiles, that happened to be women, will usually get off with a light sentencing.

First of all, I edited my post for clarity, apparently while you were working on yours.

Now that that is out of the way...

There's a thread here about the pretty blonde pedophile. I think it is instructive. There were far fewer women (none, maybe) who wanted to cut her slack than there were men who wanted to cut her slack.

It's not the thread where her sentence was being discussed, but one before that. Many of the guys didn't feel that what she did was a terrible thing. They thought the kid was lucky.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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If she was crazy did she get crazy in one sec. or was she crazy her whol life she just hid it?

No.

Here's the Time story that gives a better picture of what went on.


http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,218445,00.html

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[juanesky 0]

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Just an example, the latest and greatest child molesters/pedophiles, that happened to be women, will usually get off with a light sentencing.

First of all, I edited my post for clarity, apparently while you were working on yours.

Now that that is out of the way...

Why, because you say so? Why don't you look at it as part of the current legal-political atmosphere that permeates not only in here but worldwide.

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There's a thread here about the pretty blonde pedophile. I think it is instructive. There were far fewer women (none, maybe) who wanted to cut her slack than there were men who wanted to cut her slack.

It's not the thread where her sentence was being discussed, but one before that. Many of the guys didn't feel that what she did was a terrible thing. They thought the kid was lucky.

rl

I leave that last thought as something some pseudo phsycologist would be proud of.. Not me.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[rhino 0]

She needs to be put to death, the same way a rabid dog needs to be put down..

The rabid dog deserves to live more than she does.

[RhondaLea 4]

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Now that that is out of the way...

Why, because you say so? Why don't you look at it as part of the current legal-political atmosphere that permeates not only in here but worldwide.

[rhino 0]

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If she's found insane

We have too many labels to enable people to get out of accepting responsibility.. She knew that the cops needed to be at her home. I heard the 911 call.. That means she knew god damned well and good what she was doing and that it was wrong.

I'm curious how parents vs non-parents view this issue.. My hunch is that single people "especially women" are sympathizing with that cunt...

Rhino

[SkyDekker 1,465]

it has nothing to do with sympathizing.

You have in the past clearly shown that you do not believe in mental illness. To you, a smile a day can keep the phsyciatrist away. Unfortunately, in the real world, that isn't the case.

I agree that some time the insanity plea is overused, but it is up to our courts to deal with that. In this particular case, I think it is pretty clear the woman is insane, or at least was at the time.

[juanesky 0]

And I can apply that you do not believe in guns, to you a smile, and very fast legs can keep criminals at bay.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[juanesky 0]

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Dude, as near as I can tell, I agreed with you, so I don't know what your issue is. Can you state it clearly so I understand?

If what you want is a fight, I'm not interested. If you want to start another thread on the issue that seems to have you wound up, then do it. But don't get belligerent with me when I offer you agreement, okay?

Somehow, I totally misinterpreted your post, on that part.

Please accept my apologies.

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Well, there ya go. You've been betrayed by your own sex. Don't blame it on the women.

I don't feel betrayed by my own sex, nor blame anything to a particular gender or creed.

Is all about attitudes, where it stems from. If someone has a pedohile attitude, to me that is wrong. I could care less what color-creed-beliefs-sex - origin this person has. I stated so then, and will do so now.

PS: I appreciate your honesty on the subject.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[RhondaLea 4]

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I'm curious how parents vs non-parents view this issue.. My hunch is that single people "especially women" are sympathizing with that cunt...

I'm a single woman.

I'm also a mother.

And I'm really fucking tired of your use of the word "cunt."

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[tbrown 26]

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Additionally, the State has withheld two charges of murder so that should a verdict go against them, they are able to slap new charges on her immediately (which bothers me a great deal, honestly).

I think it's a great move by the DA to get another shot at her without any double-jeopardy bullshit.

The real issue is whether or not she was in her right mind when she killed her kids. Nobody doubts that she killed them all & she's confessed as much. And even if she is not guilty by reason of insanity, she still belongs in an institution, much like John Hinkley is for shooting President Reagan.

But the question of her state of mind and whether or not she's guilty of a crime should be settled once and for all with one trial, as her state of mind was one and the same for all of the kids.

But this is Texas, where they give out varsity letters to executioners and they don't care what kind of lengths they need to go to in order to stock some fresh meat on death row. Guilty, innocent, insane, who cares ? If they can kill 'em they will.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Darius11 12]

Other then planed murder (for some reason I can’t remember the term Friday and I want to go home maybe) is anyone in their right mind when they are killing someone?

As you are choking the life out of someone are you thinking hey this is wrong I shouldn’t be doing this or your so mad that you don’t care?


Not just to you Wendy but just a ?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wmw999 2,589]

You're so crazy that you think you're doing the right thing. Maybe saving them from greater pain; maybe making sure that they're not exposed to any more sin so that they can go to Heaven instead of Hell.

Maybe they are mutant aliens who are there to steal your brain.

Remember that even in the Bible, Abraham was going to kill Isaac because God told him to, but God spared Isaac in the end. And no one calls him a nutter.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jenfly00 0]

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In the case of PPD/PPP, many cases resolve themselves after the hormones even out. The cure is what she was told before. Don't have any more kids, and it won't happen again.

Reading this and a previous post of yours, am I mistaken that you recommend a relative brief course of institutalization for the purpose of obtaining theraputic med levels and hormones, followed by release under med supervision?

No. I'd recommend that she be institutionalized and placed under the care of doctors who can treat her appropriately.

If she was truly suffering from an extreme case of PPP, as evidence seems to indicate, I think the only appropriate verdict would be not guilty by reason of insanity.

Sounds appropriate to me. As opined elsewhere in this thread, the most humane thing to do would probably be to execute her, but as horrendous as her acts were, I believe long term care in a secure facility is appropriate in this case.

I'm not sure about climbing on the PPP bandwagon however (nor the 'blame the man' or the 'kill the rabid cunt' bandwagons). She was psychotic long before this happened. I believe she was insane, at the time of the murders, in every meaningful sense of the word.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".