Military to Dump M9

[warpedskydiver 0]

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Ive had the same problem with ballistic tips.Shot an antalope in the chest and it didnt even enter the body.I went to accu bonds in my varmint rifle and my 25.06 exellent accurys and awesome take down try them you'll love um.

Ah therin lies the problem: ballistic tip bullets are made for different reeason in different sizes...on a larger bullt say anywhere from .270win on up its got a little more jacket thickness....5.56mm is made purely for rapid nearly explosive fragmentation

the 25cal is mostly considered by the ammo manufacturers to be a varmint round...yes it will kill deer but so will .22LR.

I am not being condescending about this its just what they have chosen to designate as a "varmint round".

On the other hand yes a .308 will kill coyotes(duh) but they consider it a medium game round, and so the jacket thickness is greater. It still expands rapidly but does not fragment quite so much(I have actually found most of the bullet post mortem)

I never really use a laser range finder for ranging targets beforehand...but thats just me.

I spent many many years surveying and shooting distances so I usually know the distance at a glance.
In surveying you need to be able to gauge whether the instrument is giving you some type of erroneous reading and therfore you pay attention always and that trains you.

the reason I started using ballistic tip is accuracy flat shooting and I was tired of ruined meat by over penetration resulting in 2 ruined front shoudlers.

I hope this all helps

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[Trae 1]

Any firearm such as the Beretta that has inside moving parts hanging on the outside surely makes questionable military sense especially when used in a dusty desert environment.
The whole 9mm thing was to accomodate those who complained about the 45 being too heavy and hard to shoot properly .

What sort of warriors are these types.? and who listened to them so big.?

It seems amazing that the US forces would adopt any firearm NOT made/designed in the USA.
The modern 1911 is so incredibly developed (and so purty )....... what took you's so long. .....of course it was the bean counters not the fighters talking .

[JohnRich 4]

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in .308win I use 150grain nosler ballistic tips
in .270win I use 130grain nosler ballistic tips
in 5.56mm I use 55grain combined technology ballistic tips(varmints)

Those bullet weights are light compared to what we use for long range target shooting. In .308 we use 168 grains out to 600 yards, and 175 grains out to 1,000 yards. For 5.56 mm we use 69 grains, or even 75 grains out to 600 yards. The Sierra Matchkings are very popular. These are made for targets though, and not for hunting.

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A tapered bore is the end product of firelapping the bore is slightly larger at the throat than it is at the muzzle...

I know about firelapping, but I didn't realize that it polishes out more of the bore at the throat then at the crown. I would think this effect would be minimal.

At a shooting match today, we had a 26 mph wind from a 45-degree angle, at 600 yards. Ack! I dialed in 10 minutes of windage, or 60 inches worth - five feet of wind drift!

[JohnRich 4]

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But there is an easier, better way. I'm sure you already know all this John, because you do a lot of long range shooting.

A lot of hunters are buying quality range finders. I recently put a target turret on the elevation adjustment on one of my Leupolds. So, all you have to do is range an animal then turn the turret for that range and you should be right on.

Here's an article related to this kind of thing which I wrote for our gun club newsletter. It explains how to do range-finding with simple iron sights involving nothing more than a front post sight.

* * *

Did you know that you can use a stock service rifle with open iron sights to determine the range of an object based upon a known object size, or to determine object size based upon a known range?

That's correct! You don't need a fancy rifle scope, or an expensive laser range finder to do these functions.

You can do it with simple iron rifle sights, using two pieces of information: The width of the front post sight, and the sight radius. The sight radius is the distance between the front sight and the rear sight.

Using these two numbers, you can extrapolate the size of the area covered by the front post at different distances. This is a direct linear relationship.

The idea is similar to a math formula, in the form A + B = C. If you know any two of the three values, you can determine the third value. With a rifle you're shooting, you can know the sight radius and front post width. Using those two known values, you can determine the distance to a target of known size, or the size of a target at a known distance.

As an example, on my AR15 the front post is .052 inches wide, and the sight radius from my rear peep sight to my front post sight is 20".

So, the front post covers .052 inches at a 20" distance. Therefore, at twice that distance, or 40" (an additional 20" out in front of the front sight), the front post will cover twice that width of area, or .104 inches. You can keep extending this extrapolation distance outward in increments of the sight radius, or to simplify, we can use a formula:

Yds x 36 / SR x FPW

Where:
"Yds" is the distance in yards to the target
"36" is the number of inches in a yard
"SR" is the sight radius distance, in inches
"FPW" is the front post width, in decimal inches

You can use this formula for any rifle, simply by measuring the front post width and sight radius. To measure the front post width accurately, you'll need a fine instrument like calipers.

Using this formula, you can now determine range-finding information at given distances. At 100 yards for my AR15:

100 x 36" / 20" x .052"
3600" / 20" x .052"
180 x .052"
9.4"

So, at 100 yards, my AR15 front post covers an area 9.4 inches wide.

This means that if you know what the size of the target is, you can accurately estimate the distance to that target, simply by looking at it through your iron sights, and gauging the size relative to the angle of area covered by your front post.

Good soldiers know that the average human chest is about 12" wide. Therefore, if you were to aim at the enemy with my AR15, and the front post was slightly smaller than the width of the enemy's chest, with about an inch of chest showing on either side of the front post, then you would know that the enemy was about 100 yards away, and could set your sight elevation accordingly for accuracy.

Likewise, if you know the distance to your target, you can accurately estimate the size of the target.

For example, if you're shooting at a 100 yard rifle range, and the black spot of the bulls-eye is the same diameter as the width of your front post as you look through your sights, you know the bulls-eye is 9" in diameter. And if you use a six-o'clock hold sight picture with the front post held underneath the black spot, that tells you that you want your point of impact to be 4.5" higher (the radius of the black spot) than your point of aim in order to hit the center of the bulls-eye. You can then adjust your elevation accordingly.

Rather than use this math formula in the field, you can come up with a table of the derived values for known distances, to help you out, and keep them in a notebook or in memory. Using the numbers for my AR15 sights, I have the following table:

Yards Width
--------- --------
100 9.4"
200 18.7"
300 28.1"
400 37.4"
500 46.8"
600 56.2"

For simplification, we can just round this off to 10 inches per 100 yards, and use that as an easy number to remember without consulting notes or working formulas, and is accurate enough for all practical shooting purposes.

That's it! Now you know how to do range-finding and size estimation, using nothing but the simple open sights on an ordinary rifle.

* * *

Your mileage will vary depending upon the width of your front sight post. I replaced my factory post with a skinnier one, for more precise target shooting.

[steve1 5]

Sounds like a good formula, John. The legendary Jack O'connor used a Lee Dot in the center of his scope to estimate range. He figured out how much it would cover up at different ranges and had great success with it....Steve1

[steve1 5]

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explosive fragmentation

the 25cal is mostly considered by the ammo manufacturers to be a varmint round...yes it will kill deer but so will .22LR.

Most everyone I know who owns a 25/06 loves that rifle. I wouldn't use it on elk, or moose, but it works great on antelope and deer. Bullets for that rifle need to hold together and penetrate the vitals though. A hit on bone with a lightly constructed bullet, that is moving that fast, could prove disasterous. I know a guide in Alaska who hunts moose with that rifle. Although, far from being an adequate moose cartridge, that is what he uses.



the reason I started using ballistic tip is accuracy flat shooting and I was tired of ruined meat by over penetration resulting in 2 ruined front shoudlers.

I've got in the habit of trying to miss the front shoulders on deer and elk, if I can. A bullet can really make a mess of things and ruin quite a bit of meat, but sometimes it happens. A few inches off, when aiming at the lungs, and you've got your bullet hitting bone. That's why I like a bullet that will hold together when the inevitable does happen.

Probably the most accurate bullets on the market are based on a hollow point design. Although extremely accurate they are risky to use on big game, because they can fragment and not penetrate when hitting a shoulder blade. A ballistic tip bullet isn't really a hollow point, but very similiar in design.

I've shot Ballistic Tip bullets for years, but no more. I can shoot 1/2 inch groups with them, and they work great on deer sized critters as long as I miss bone with them. But again hunting conditions are hardly perfect. Many shots are taken from an unsteady shooting position. I know I'll eventually hit another shoulder blade with them. That's why I'm experimenting with different bullets now, before hunting season opens.

I don't mean to sound like a know it all. I'm really narrow minded about some things. It seems like the older I get the grouchier I get on some subjects, and guns and ammo are easy to argue about. What works for me, may not be the answer for someone else....Steve1

[warpedskydiver 0]

I know about firelapping, but I didn't realize that it polishes out more of the bore at the throat then at the crown. I would think this effect would be minimal.

[warpedskydiver 0]

A lot of hunters are buying quality range finders. I recently put a target turret on the elevation adjustment on one of my Leupolds. So, all you have to do is range an animal then turn the turret for that range and you should be right on.

[warpedskydiver 0]

At a shooting match today, we had a 26 mph wind from a 45-degree angle, at 600 yards. Ack! I dialed in 10 minutes of windage, or 60 inches worth - five feet of wind drift!


was that wind blowing the same all along the course?...or at the target?...at the firing line?

[warpedskydiver 0]

John I know that feeling just this past season I took a "fun shot" at a deer trotting left to right at around 875yds...missed behind for the fact the wind was blowing uneven (15mph)and etc. but the range was on...my spotter hadn't put down his coffee yet!!!grrrrrrI had only stuffed one round into the chamber and didn't bother inserting a magazine
I figured to hold off 150" above roughly(damned surveyor brain!)

by the way it was 15feet behind the doe....yikes!!
was enough to make her jump and haul ass though!

[steve1 5]

[warpedskydiver 0]

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That's correct! You don't need a fancy rifle scope, or an expensive laser range finder to do these functions.


Have you ever tried a good MilDot scope and used a mildot master? its a slide rule type thing and faster than any calculator out there....been in use for many yearshttp://www.ustacticalsupply.com/mildot-slope.shtml cheap too!

another solution is a shepherd scope I am sure you all have heard of them....one shot zeroing and then place the circle that fits on the target and fire!

[JohnRich 4]

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At a shooting match today, we had a 26 mph wind from a 45-degree angle, at 600 yards. Ack! I dialed in 10 minutes of windage, or 60 inches worth - five feet of wind drift!

was that wind blowing the same all along the course?...or at the target?...at the firing line?

Usually the same, but not always. The wind flags sometimes go every which way, and makes for much head-scratching. One of the tricks is to just wait until the wind conditions are the same before taking each shot, to make each one consistent with the others before it. But there's a time limit too, and you don't always have that luxury.

[JohnRich 4]

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I took a "fun shot" at a deer trotting left to right at around 875yds...missed behind for the fact the wind was blowing uneven (15mph)... it was 15feet behind the doe...

That's a serious distance, even for a target that isn't moving. I wouldn't have a chance of calculating wind drift plus lead for that...

Hollywood makes the shooting sports look so simple and easy. Hardly!

[craddock 0]

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I know that feeling just this past season I took a "fun shot" at a deer trotting left to right at around 875yds...missed behind for the fact the wind was blowing uneven (15mph)and etc.

This is bullshit! I don't care how good of a shot you are, you don't just take a "fun shot" to test your skills and you Luck. I myself enjoy shooting long ranges for practice and would feel quite comfortable taking a reasonable long shot on whitetail in the correct conditions.

Where I hunt however I am lucky to take a shot over 50 yards and the furthest I ever shot down a logging road was just under 200 yards offhand. At these short distance there is not much fear of ruining meat. The longest shot I took this year was 60 yards. The shortest was right under my stand. All lungs and heart. I will probably have a belly full of Venison by the time you read this.

But back to my original statement, Shooting at a running dear at almost 900 yards( in the wind no less) is piss poor ethics. It is people like you that give hunters a bad name. Don't take pot shots. Don't shoot if you can't make a clean kill. I would never allow you to hunt out of my camp or attend a hunt with someone like yourself if I have before hand knowledge of your horrendious ethics.

Not that this would bother you.

Josh

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[warpedskydiver 0]

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I know that feeling just this past season I took a "fun shot" at a deer trotting left to right at around 875yds...missed behind for the fact the wind was blowing uneven (15mph)and etc.

This is bullshit! I don't care how good of a shot you are, you don't just take a "fun shot" to test your skills and you Luck. I myself enjoy shooting long ranges for practice and would feel quite comfortable taking a reasonable long shot on whitetail in the correct conditions.(not 900 yards)

Where I hunt however I am lucky to take a shot over 50 yards and the furthest I ever shot down a logging road was just under 200 yards offhand. At these short distance there is not much fear of ruining meat. The longest shot I took this year was 60 yards. The shortest was right under my stand. All lungs and heart. I will probably have a belly full of Venison by the time you read this.

But back to my original statement, Shooting at a running dear at almost 900 yards( in the wind no less) is piss poor ethics. It is people like you that give hunters a bad name. Don't take pot shots. Don't shoot if you can't make a clean kill. I would never allow you to hunt out of my camp or attend a hunt with someone like yourself if I have before hand knowledge of your horrendious ethics.

Not that this would bother you.

Josh

yack yack yack....


where I hunt it is a T zone which means the population is so great that they have mass starvation at a level which actually would make you ill if you witnessed it.

As for my shooting ability if you feel like you should never take a shot over 200yds please don't

everyone needs to stay within ones limits


If that animal were standing still I would have had a very good chance of a kill

as for my shooting ability your stating that it is "bullshit" shows one thing you do not know anything about me or my background.

I have actually made a kill at around 900meters in the past but that is something that you won't understand...and something I will not explain (at least not in polite company)

TYVM for for implying I am not a competent hunter

I would like to add that the one I shot that was hauling ass @211 yds away I shot offhand with a rifle that weighs 14lbs so please by all means do not ever question someones abilities unless you actually know them personally...
I wouldn't care to hunt with you anyway as I do not hunt from a stand or over feeders.

The men I hunt with I served with in the United States Army and the lowest ranking among them was an E6 Ssgt.

I guess I will be forced to eat the venison in my freezer as I only killed six this year as opposed to the seven I got last year

to this very day I have never wounded an animal only to have it get away and have never shot one twice.

I usually wind up shooting backup after the 1st day out in order to make sure nothing runs away wounded. I have been hunting since my Nono(grandfather) took me at 6 yrs old to hunt rabbits with a single shot 22short stevens crackshot boys rifle

I also do gunsmithing at times and have consulted with Gunners Mate Chiefs in the Navy Seals on weapons so please stop your lecture

I would also admit that if I didn't know me I may have thought the same way but would not have been so critical without knowing all the facts

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[craddock 0]

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where I hunt it is a T zone which means the population is so great that they have mass starvation at a level which actually would make you ill if you witnessed it.

Now it's getting deep. Every area I hunt in WI is T zone so I am well aware of the condition and the population of the Deer there. Two of the Does I shot this year had over two inches of fat on their ass and were very good size does. Your statement is ludicrious.

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As for my shooting ability if you feel like you should never take a shot over 200yds please don't

Not at all what I said. Not only bad ethics, but can't read either.

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I guess I will be forced to eat the venison in my freezer as I only killed 6 this year as opposed to the 7 I got last year

Ethics have nothing to do with the amount of deer one can kill in a year. It has much more to do with the ones you miss though. Your apparently to Macho to understand. I don't need background info on anyone to know that shooting at a running deer at 900 yard is piss poor fucking ethics.

The fact that you missed by 15 feet proves my point more than word ever could.

And you have know idea what I would or would not understand.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[warpedskydiver 0]

The fact that you missed by 15 feet proves my point more than word ever could.

And you have know idea what I would or would not understand.


I guess you don't even have an idea of how close that really is due to conditions and having no spotter.

like I said keep your words to yourself will ya?

[craddock 0]

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I guess you don't even have an idea of how close that really is due to conditions and having no spotter.

That is exactly my point! How hard is that for you to understand!

You are making a great assumption that I have no experience or knowledge in long range shooting.

Get off your ego trip.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[warpedskydiver 0]

go cry into your beer will ya?

on a lighter note I hear you are a good skydiver
I wish I was

[warpedskydiver 0]

BTW stand hunting should be mostly reserved for old lame guys or texans who hunt over feeders.

[LouDiamond 1]

Gentlemen( Warped and Craddock) lets keep this civil, no need to take this line of conversation any further.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[steve1 5]

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I know that feeling just this past season I took a "fun shot" at a deer trotting left to right at around 875yds...missed behind for the fact the wind was blowing uneven (15mph)and etc.

This is bullshit! I don't care how good of a shot you are, you don't just take a "fun shot" to test your skills and you Luck. I myself enjoy shooting long ranges for practice and would feel quite comfortable taking a reasonable long shot on whitetail in the correct conditions.

But back to my original statement, Shooting at a running dear at almost 900 yards( in the wind no less) is piss poor ethics. It is people like you that give hunters a bad name. Don't take pot shots. Don't shoot if you can't make a clean kill. I would never allow you to hunt out of my camp or attend a hunt with someone like yourself if I have before hand knowledge of your horrendious ethics.

Not that this would bother you.

Josh

Craddock,
I have to agree with you. I've been biting my tongue on this, and I should have jumped in sooner. Lecturing another hunter about ethics can create a lot of hard feelings, but maybe it's needed.

Taking a long shot that you aren't sure of, or even running shots (in most cases) are unethical in my book. A missed shot could have been a shot that broke a leg, or hit the guts, or even hit an animal in the rear. It causes unnecassary suffering and lingering death. It also gives all hunters a bad name.

Rationalizing that there are lot's of deer is a good arguement for hunting, but it is a really poor reason to allow unethical shooting and crippling of game in the name of fun.

I've killed a lot of big game in my day, but I still have tons of respect for the animals I hunt. They deserve a better death than to have someone taking "iffy" pot shots at them, and crippling them in the process.....Steve1