lawrocket 3 #1 January 30, 2006 In the wake of the execution of Clarence Ray Allen, I have been questioning the usefulness of the tradition of letting those condemned to speak their "last words." This was due a great deal to what Clarence Ray Allen said. In his final statement, he thanked friends, family and supporter. He said how much he hated leaving behind his friend of 20 years, Ward Francis Weaver, Jr., who killed a couple in Tehachapi when their car broke down (His son is also a murderer and rapist). He also thanked the prison cooks for the great last meal he was provided. Then he ended it with "Hoka hey - 'It's a good day to die' Thank you very much. love you all. Goodbye." He said nothing about his crimes or his victims. The only thing that was probably agreeable by the victims and their families was that it was a good day for him to die, albeit a late one. There are other last words that are similarly devoid of what I view as merit and usefullness: "I did not get my Spaghetti-O's, I got spaghetti. I want the press to know this." Thomas J. Grasso, d. March 20, 1995 "I don’t know why Marta Glass wasn’t allowed in here. I love you all. Keep the faith. Remember, the death penalty is murder. My attorney, Ron Kuley [illegible], will read my letter at a press conference after this is over. That is all I have to say. I love you all." Robert Drew, d. August 2, 1994 "Capital punishment: them without the capital get the punishment." John Spenkelink, d. May 25, 1979 "I love you." (Spoken to the executioner) Sean Flannagan, d. June 23, 1989 "You sons of bitches. Give my love to Mother." Francis "Two Gun" Crowley, d. 1931 "How about this for a headline for tomorrow's paper? French fries." James French, d. 1966 "I'd like to thank my family for loving me and taking care of me. And the rest of the world can kiss my ass." Johnny Frank Garrett, Sr., d. February 11, 1992 "Today is a good day to die. I forgive all of you. I hope God does too." Mario Benjamin Murphy, d. September 17, 1997 "Only the sky and the green grass goes on forever and today is a good day to die." David Matinez, d. July 28, 2005 "Yes sir, Warden Okay I've been hanging around this popsicle stand way too long. Before I leave, I want to tell you all. When I die, bury me deep, lay two speakers at my feet, put some headphones on my head and rock and roll me when I'm dead. I'll see you in Heaven someday. That's all Warden." Douglas Roberts, d. April 20, 2005 Now, what is the purpose of the "final statement?" Bearing the purpose in mind, is this something that should be continued? I find a problem finding anything redeeming in them. I don't think they help the families and friends of the victims too much. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #2 January 30, 2006 There is no point whatsoever. It's some feel good leftover from a long time ago. The death penalty should be carried out emotionlessly and clinically. A formalized final statement contributes nothing. I think it's intended that some statement is hoped to be made in terms of apology to the victims for their closure or; a defiant statement that allows us to say, "see? he's non-repentent, it's ok to kill him". No point. This isn't about closure for the victims, it's not about giving society some kind of extra 'feel good' reason to continue. A final statement can just be the last thing a guy says. Who cares if it's recorded or even listened to? His court case is over. That is the end of it. If we took the death penalty seriously, then a lot fewer people would get it, and those that did would be killed immediately. Much less hand wringing, and much less pissy little gestures and ceremony. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 35 #3 January 30, 2006 These two are my favorites. I'd guess the first one was a mafia or mob member. Quote"You sons of bitches. Give my love to Mother." Francis "Two Gun" Crowley, d. 1931 "I'd like to thank my family for loving me and taking care of me. And the rest of the world can kiss my ass." Johnny Frank Garrett, Sr., d. February 11, 1992 "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #4 January 30, 2006 The purpose is to make the condemned person feel better and give them one last chance to fess up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #5 January 30, 2006 QuoteThe purpose is to make the condemned person feel better... Seems a bit funny, though, to decide that someone does not have the basic right to live, yet he/she has the right to feel good...HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #6 January 30, 2006 QuoteThe purpose is to make the condemned person feel better and give them one last chance to fess up. 1 - "feel better" - who cares 2 - "fess up" - case is already over So the real question is, if this is the purpose, how does it serve justice in any way shape or form? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #7 January 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe purpose is to make the condemned person feel better... Seems a bit funny, though, to decide that someone does not have the basic right to live, yet he/she has the right to feel good... My thoughts on it had nothing to do with the guilty criminal, but rather his victims and those reponsible in carrying out the execution. But I still don't think those ideas serve justice in any way, either. Beowulf had good point too, but I don't think we can come up with anything that isn't bound in some confusin of an act of justice with some emotive or guilt ridden response. Which shouldn't play in this at all. The "final word" is non-value added. It shouldn't be fomalized - it's just one more reason to get there for a fanatic who wants to make a public message. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #8 January 30, 2006 I think its just leftover tradition from the old days when people actually cared about last words. or possibly, a chance for one to confess and redeem himself before god...This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #9 January 30, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe purpose is to make the condemned person feel better and give them one last chance to fess up. 1 - "feel better" - who cares 2 - "fess up" - case is already over So the real question is, if this is the purpose, how does it serve justice in any way shape or form? Why does it have to serve justice - the execution does that. Maybe it makes the condemned person's family and friends feel better. They (presumably) have done nothing wrong and this is a very trying time for them. editted fur spelin.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #10 January 30, 2006 QuoteWhy does it have to serve justice - the execution does that. Maybe it makes the condemned person's family and friends feel better. They (presumably) have done nothing wrong and this is a very trying time for them.. I'm just a cold hearted bastard. Actually, I doubt any of those above statements did anything other than show other assholes out there that if they commit heinous crimes, then they, too, can have their 15 seconds of very public fame - and likely caused more grief rather than less to the victim's families. I suspect there are more bravado statements than soul searching apologies. So on the average, it likely causes more harm than good to all the victims. You want to choose which criminals "get" to make final statements? That's a tough position to take. It's an act of justice, keep it simple. Get the verdict, carry out the sentence. Minimize the variables. It's not about the criminal or the victims at this point, so carrying out the verdict shouldn't consider either of them. Why not let the victims pull the switch - it might make them 'feel' better? (I hate the 'ridiculous extrapolation' of position game, but it's so much fun) Edit: You're point is well made. So, let the "Self Condemned Criminal's" family have a visit, in private to address their need to say goodbye. But absolutely no reason for the statement to be public. zero value added. the only value would be for politicians, special groups, those looking for emotional appeals (e.g., both pro and anti death penalty types can capitalize depending on the actual speech's content). ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crotalus01 0 #11 January 30, 2006 the final statement is a holdover from the early days in this country when capital punishment was as likely administered by a mob as the state. its a last chance to protest your innocence, or in some cases to confess. nowadays the condemned is more likely just to have diarrhea of the mouth.... As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murrays 0 #12 January 30, 2006 QuoteThese two are my favorites. I'd guess the first one was a mafia or mob member. Quote"You sons of bitches. Give my love to Mother." Francis "Two Gun" Crowley, d. 1931 "I'd like to thank my family for loving me and taking care of me. And the rest of the world can kiss my ass." Johnny Frank Garrett, Sr., d. February 11, 1992 My personal favourite last words were spoken by Carl Panzram, a serial killer, just before he was hanged... "Hurry up, you Hoosier son-of-a-bitch, I could kill 15 men while you're fucking around with that rope."-- Murray "No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #13 January 30, 2006 Quote"Hurry up, you Hoosier son-of-a-bitch, I could kill 15 men while you're fucking around with that rope." Certainly that provided a lot of solice to both his family and the family of the victims ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #14 January 31, 2006 QuoteQuote"Hurry up, you Hoosier son-of-a-bitch, I could kill 15 men while you're fucking around with that rope." Certainly that provided a lot of solice to both his family and the family of the victims I dunno, is it even an insult to call someone a "Hoosier"? I don't know what the fuck a Hoosier even is!... You could call me one all you want! --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #15 January 31, 2006 QuoteI don't know what the fuck a Hoosier even is!... You could call me one all you want!- Only if you're from Indiana! You're "Gator-Bait" aren't you? Anyway - back to the condemned man's last words. I guess that it's effectively a "Dying-Declaration". Most legal systems allow that if someone KNOWS they're about to die, then they have no reason to lie - therefore any statement from them does have some legal significance, always assuming that it's relevant. I suppose you're going to have to start executing a more intelligent class of criminal. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #16 January 31, 2006 Quote"Hoka hey - 'It's a good day to die' ... "Only the sky and the green grass goes on forever and today is a good day to die." .... "Today is a good day to die. I forgive all of you. I hope God does too." A bizarre testament to pop culture. I wonder how many of these 3 guys got the inspiration for saying this from Star Trek? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #17 January 31, 2006 Star trek?When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #18 January 31, 2006 Yeah. On Star Trek the Klingons are constantly saying, "Today is a good day to die". Where you been, man? Under a rock? (Actually, according to my scientifically pristine 2-minute Google search, the saying is attributed to an old Native American expression.) Just a random thought, but it sort of made me wonder whether 3 separate guys having the same expression in their last statements was a reflection of their exposure to pop culture. OK, random stream of consciousness [OFF]. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Airman1270 0 #19 February 1, 2006 Along this line, Law... I've wondered about the practice of giving the defendant a chance to make a final comment before the judge announces the sentence. What's the point? He should have been allowed a chance to say what's on his mind before the jury began deliberations, and given one last chance to influence the verdict against him. I've always had a problem with the current law tradition in which the exchange of information during a trial is so tightly micro-managed. How often, after a high-profile case, have we heard jurors lament their verdict after learning about information that had been withheld during the trial? Or worse, those who said something like "I wanted to vote "X", but felt I had to vote "Y"? It's not easy describing such a result as "justice." If I'm on trial for anything, I want the chance to communicate with the jury and be sure my argument has been fairly presented. If I'm on a jury and I sense that relevant information is being withheld, I will be less likely to take the proceedings seriously. Of course, I won't be telling anyone about this... Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #20 February 1, 2006 Good questions, and brings out stuff I didn't understand for a while,too. QuoteI've wondered about the practice of giving the defendant a chance to make a final comment before the judge announces the sentence. What's the point? He should have been allowed a chance to say what's on his mind before the jury began deliberations, and given one last chance to influence the verdict against him. This goes to the 5th Amendment. Demonstrating remorse is no defense for a crime. Saying in trial, "I'm sorry I did it" is an admission and an instant conviction. However, this happens thousands of times per day in our country by way of plea bargain. After conviction (with the exception of appeals), the defendant can speak without criminal culpability resulting. If he really feels bad, then by all means, he should ask for leniency. If he asks for leniency in trial, he can be examined on why leniency should be granted, for he "opened the door." After conviction, he's already convicted, so he may as well try to get a reduced sentence. QuoteI've always had a problem with the current law tradition in which the exchange of information during a trial is so tightly micro-managed. There are some pretty important policy reasons for this. Let's say, for example, John Doe is accused of grand theft of an auto. He had a conviction for misdemeanor petty theft ten years ago, and another one for domestic violence 6 years ago. The prosecution can't introduce evidence of those prior crimes to the jury. Just because he has committed crimes in the past doesn't mean he committed this one (with very limited exceptions, i.e., a crime was committed that was his past modus operendi). It's why the jury never heard of OJ's past DV history. On the other hand, if defendant takes the stand and says, "I wouldn't do something like steal" then the prosecution can say, "But weren't you convicted of theft back in 1995?" Now the jury hears it because he "opened the door." had OJ said, "I would have never hurt Nicole" then the whole DV history comes in to impeach his credibility on that statement. Another thing is sometimes policy is more important. Let's say someone trips on your sidewalk because a tree root pushed up the concrete. You get sued but deny any liability. Still, you fix the sidewalk. Now, the fact that you fixed the sidewalk indicates that you knew it was dangerous. If you didn't think so, why did you fix it? It's pretty strong evidence of an admission that it was defective. But that evidence of subsequent remedial measures won't come in. It's better, policy wise, to let people fix a dangerous condition so others don't get hurt rather than maintain the danger to avoid liability in the present case. It just makes sense, doesn't it? There are a lot more examples of these things. Most evidence is excluded on relevance (it's irrelevant to this crime that Doe has committed other crimes.) Sometimes even relevant evidence is excluded if it will either confuse the jury or if it would be so shocking that it would inflame the jury to hatred, i.e., showing super-gory photographs and other things that are more sensational than factual. QuoteIf I'm on trial for anything, I want the chance to communicate with the jury and be sure my argument has been fairly presented. That's what the rules of evidence are about - fairness and trustoworthiness. Let's say Tom testifies that "Joe told me that John told him that Jane saw Airman1270 rob a gas station." You know, Tom shouldn't be testifying to that. Neither should Joe or John. Jane should be testifying to that, since she can be cross-examined over what she saw. Let's say a juror says, "Dang. Had I known that Tom was told that Airman robbed that gas station, I would have convicted him. We would have had an eyewitness." That's not fair. QuoteIf I'm on a jury and I sense that relevant information is being withheld, I will be less likely to take the proceedings seriously. Hopefully, after my post, you will rethink that position. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
