Where were the parents?

[likearock 2]

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I don't want to start an argument of any sort, obviously different people have different ideas about raising children, but it just seems like you're looking for someone (the parents) to blame for this senseless accident, and therefore judging their parenting skills. The only person to possibly blame in this situation is the driver of the truck. As for the reasons why this 15 year old was driving her siblings around, you may never know that answer and in fact are not entitled to it. That information belongs to the family and only those they choose to share it with. IMHO, it seems the only questions that anyone should be seeking answers to are those involving the driver of the truck. At this point, those are the only pertinent answers.

Absolutely. The fact that there was no adult supervision had nothing to do with this accident. It's totally unfair to blame the parents for this. The truck driver was either sleeping or otherwise distracted and he's the one who should bear the responsibility.

[Lindsey 0]

When my little boy's babysitter was 15, I helped him get a hardship license so that he could take my child where he needed to go.

Jay's babysitter is a responsible kid, and I trust him more than I trust many adults to drive my boy around town. He's 16 now, and I have NO qualms about letting him be the driver when my son is in the car.

No telling how responsible this girl was, but there are lots of 15 y/o's who could be trusted to drive children around safely. This accident, obviously, wasn't her fault. What's the purpose of crucifying her or her mother now. She, and the other children, are dead. If I were their mother I doubt that I'd be far behind them. Just sad.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Muenkel 0]

This incident can be looked at from many different perspectives. Perhaps if the 15 year old was not driving and their vehicle was not there, the school bus may have taken the full brunt and the body count may have been much higher. Perhaps the fact that the vehicle was there, lives may have been saved.

Anyway, this is an enormous tragedy. I can only feel sympathy for those parents. No parent should suffer like this.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I feel for the parents they lost all their kids, but jeez what was the oldest doing driving the van? Should the parents get some kind of reprimand?

The fact that you are posting about this tragedy and in the same post wondering about the punishment the state should give the parents...



"says a lot about your character."


You're absolutely right. Something was very wrong there, for this situation to have even been able to unfold.

I'd like to know why the truck driver never even braked for the stopped traffic. Maybe he's the one who should have burned to death, and not the kids. The kids, yes, that is a huge tragedy. Even if the 15-year-old made a dumb decision to drive knowing she was not even licensed (a criminal offense), the younger ones were never in a position to be responsible for their own lives, safety, or even activities such as going out for a drive. What could a 2-year-old have done to control his destiny in this case? It was all up to the parents or the 15-year-old.

Sad to say, probably NOTHING will be done to these parents. I have seen too many cases where the authorities decline to charge them, saying, "This tragedy is punishment enough for them; they have to go the rest of their lives thinking about what happened as a result of their poor parenting."

That's a cop-out, and it allows for others to make foolish decisions and also suffer no official consequences. And the cycle continues.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Miranda 0]

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Sad to say, probably NOTHING will be done to these parents. I have seen too many cases where the authorities decline to charge them, saying, "This tragedy is punishment enough for them; they have to go the rest of their lives thinking about what happened as a result of their poor parenting."

These people just lost all 7 of their children, what could the state possibly officially do to these people that could "punish" them more than what they've already been dealt?

As far as their "poor parenting" is concerned, that's your opinion and of course different people have different ideas on how to raise children. What makes your "parenting skills" the standard by which all others should be judged? Do you even have children? If you don't, then you can't possibly understand the pain this family is dealing with. If you do, then you should understand their grief and offer a little compassion and sympathy. But then, that's just my opinion.

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That's a cop-out, and it allows for others to make foolish decisions and also suffer no official consequences. And the cycle continues.

How does it possibly allow for others to make foolish decisions? No one allows anyone else to make a decision. Decisions are made by individuals regardless of what punishment has been dealt to someone else. We as a society need to stop blaming others for our "foolish decisions", after all, they are our decisions. I'm gonna call bull shit on the cycle continues comment.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Yeah, I have a serious problem with a 15 yr old driving a car, period. I also have a serious problem with a 15 yr old driving a car with 6 other siblings in the car.

I have more of a problem with the idea that she was driving illegally -- no license, but someone let her have access to a car. Now, maybe she stole it, leaving without any express permission. But more likely, this was something she was known to do.

Remember the kid in Florida here who was shot and killed by a cop in a schoolyard, because he was driving illegally (in a car his uncle had loaned him), and then sped off when accosted by the police officer?

It can be said that he'd be alive if he had obeyed the law. His own actions precipitated his death. His uncle's complicity can also be said to have led to his death.

Now, this girl, had she not been let to drive around with her siblings in this manner (weren't some of them ejected, indicating that they were not seat-belted? not sure if I read that in an article somewhere), might have just been somewhere else.

Who knows what that might have meant: more would have been hurt, maybe killed in the school bus? Maybe a different car would have been smashed, with an old couple in it? No way to know.

Someone's gonna be held to blame for this. That driver (and the company he works for) better hope he was not drunk, on drugs, or on the phone, or he's gonna be raked over the coals, and rightly so. And they're gonna eat it when the civil suit comes around. (Although a court would likely split the judgment and render the parents, the girl driver, and the truck driver partly at fault for reasons already mentioned).

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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These people just lost all 7 of their children, what could the state possibly officially do to these people that could "punish" them more than what they've already been dealt?

That's exactly what I'm talking about. I rarely see parents whose OWN NEGLIGENCE resulted in harm to their kids PUNISHED by the authorities. I think it's a cop-out. It sends a message that no one is really serious about deterring this kind of thing.

If the parents were found to have let the unlicensed girl drive and she survived a crash unharmed, they'd charge the parents.

So just because the kids died, they are not punished.

I don't think I agree with that, as much as I may empathize with their loss. It may well turn out that their loss sprung from their own doing and the choices they made.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[lurch 0]

What really pisses me off is the certainty that a great deal of noise will be made about the age of the driver and the incident will be used as an excuse to invent yet another law further erasing what few freedoms teenagers have. Those creating the new restrictions will completely blow off the fact that the age of the person behind the wheel had absolutely nothing to do with causing the accident.
Where were the parents? WTF does it matter? Its trendy to demonize teen drivers these days, like smokers and SUV owners. People are going to figure out a way to blame the kid for this invent new bullshit laws and claim they're saving lives. WTF.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

There is NOTHING new about so-called "demonizing" teen drivers.

How many decades has it been where teenagers are an "assigned risk" insurance category? That's because it's been long-known that they have more, and worse, accidents than seasoned adult drivers.

Many other states do not let teens drive as yound as Florida does. Irv Slosberg, a FL state legislator, is trying to get the law changed because he feels (as do I) that 16 is far too young to be a licensed driver.

Accident statistics bear him out, on this one.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[lurch 0]

Theres nothing new about it, no, but its accelerated radically in the last few years, and I see it as another manifestation of the "nanny state" attitude. For those teenagers who must support themselves without a nice cushy middle class family support structure to drive them around during restriction times this crap is a nightmare. The driving age was a flat 16 for a great many years, yes? Why was it not a problem since, what, the 1950's? None of this graduated privileges and control of who what age and how many you're allowed to drive shit, you got your license you go drive, plain and simple. Suddenly last few years its an urgent emergency and its considered necessary to say ok, now you're not allowed to drive at night, ok now you're not allowed to drive with any other teens in the car, ok now you're not allowed to drive without an adult over 21, etc. Its like revoking AFF and forcing everyone to go back to static line, being granted little bits of freefall at a whack like dog treats. You don't teach a teen to deal with hazards by not allowing them to experience them.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[lurch 0]

Here's my helpful suggestion: instead of claiming 16 is too young, start them YOUNGER and train them longer, from ages 14 through 16. Graduate the "privileges" before they reach an age where they NEED to drive, so when they hit 16 and fully licensed they're already thoroughly experienced at the helm.You move the age back all you do is delay the time at which they cease being newbies on the road. By doing so you simply create a sudden new spike of accidents a year or two further down and now its the 18-21 set who have more accidents because they're newer on the road.

Live and learn... or die, and teach by example.

[RhondaLea 4]

...if the mother or father had been driving, there'd have been one more dead person in the car do some of you not understand?

My take is that the girl was asked to run an errand. I find it hard to believe that with all those kids in the car, anyone can even begin to make the case that she took the car without permission.

Seatbelts? Have you ever seen the aftermath of a semi rear-ending a passenger vehicle?* If you are run over by a big truck, it's over.

So, no matter how you look at it, those kids were dead, and the only other possibility was that they might've taken a parent with them. I can see how another scenario would lead to the discussion of "where were the parents?" but not this one, and this one is really bothering me, because it leaves the facts of the situation in the dust while everyone is off speculating in the stratosphere.

rl

*I'll tell you something. When I sit at a traffic light, stop sign, anywhere, I keep eyes on the rearview mirror, and I always have an out. I can't tell you how many times I've pulled off the road/into another lane, because I didn't like the look of the truck coming up behind me. But with all due apologies to the EMTs who have seen it firsthand (I've only had that experience once), I'm guessing that most people here don't have the experience of working insurance defense, and have never seen the pictures I have.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[OATSF14 0]

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Do you really want your children to fear you?

I most certainly wanted my son to fear me. The "wrath of the father" swayed him many times as he was growing up. (So he tells me. He is now 20) I am his father. Kids growing up need guidance and if that guidance is due to fear (in their mind) I have no issue with that whatsoever. He has done well and I have great respect for him. Fear can have a powerful influence.

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

"So, no matter how you look at it, those kids were dead, and the only other possibility was that they might've taken a parent with them. I can see how another scenario would lead to the discussion of "where were the parents?" but not this one, and this one is really bothering me, because it leaves the facts of the situation in the dust while everyone is off speculating in the stratosphere."


Well apparently after they look into why the accident happned, ie the truck driver, they are going to look into why the 15 yr old was behind the wheel.

I am in no way saying the parents should suffer any more then what they are going thru. I just find it insane that the CHILD was behind the wheel of the van in the first place.

If that CHILD would have plowed into on coming traffic and killed someone else, people would have been outraged.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[diablopilot 2]

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It's pretty obvious that some of the people in this thread aren't familiar with the "American way"... which is to rely on society to keep your children safe and out of trouble.

Now there is a shovel full of bullshit.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Miranda 0]

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If that CHILD would have plowed into on coming traffic and killed someone else, people would have been outraged. ***

quoting rl...
***
I can see how another scenario would lead to the discussion of "where were the parents?" but not this one, and this one is really bothering me, because it leaves the facts of the situation in the dust while everyone is off speculating in the stratosphere."

No offense, but did you even read what you were replying to? You can speculate all day long about the "what ifs" but that won't change what actually happened. You're beating a dead horse on this one...

[wmw999 2,589]

If there were a crash and the juvenile driver was not at fault but unlicensed, her parents would have been given a ticket. They would not have gone to jail; that's ludicrous. Really.

I suppose it would satisfy your sense of justice for the parents to be given a ticket now. Would you like to deliver it, along with a lecture?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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I suppose it would satisfy your sense of justice for the parents to be given a ticket now. Would you like to deliver it, along with a lecture?.

I'm under the assumptions that the girl was driving illegally with the awareness/approval of her parents. That she drove legally, and that the bus driver ran a light or sign and hit the car. So it's simple enough.

If the parents are legally due a ticket, then they should get a ticket.

It's not about self riteous 'revenge' on the parents any more than it is about heartfelt 'compassion' for the parents. That has nothing to do with the legality of the violation.

So ticket? yes
Lecture? no

If the bus driver ran a light or stop sign, then she's responsible for the accident as well as a traffic violation.

If the parents allowed an unlicensed child to drive, that's the offense. Nothing more.

But if the unlicensed driver didn't break a law resulting in the accident, then neither the parents nor the teenager are responsible for the accident. Only for placing themselves in that situation - that isn't a legal issue, it's a fate issue. We shouldn't legislate punishment for issues of fate - but civil courts certainly try to.

I'm seeing a lot of outrage over the structure of the situation being confused with specifics in responsibility, and legality.

Punishing the parents for something the bus driver is responsible makes no sense. Thinking they were irresponsible is different that what the law would dictate.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,589]

I agree with you there. I'll admit to a little irritation with all the "they should go to jail for incredibly irresponsible behavior" stuff.

The 15-year-old should not have been driving. But if she was, as it appears, sandwiched in the middle of an accident, it's hard to say that she contributed in any way. From the news stories I read, she was stopped behind a school bus. Yes, she was in the middle of the road, but if the school bus is discharging students, then she's supposed to stop.

It's a tragic situation. If blame MUST be assigned, the driver who plowed into the back looks like the most likely target right now.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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If there were a crash and the juvenile driver was not at fault but unlicensed, her parents would have been given a ticket. They would not have gone to jail; that's ludicrous. Really.

I suppose it would satisfy your sense of justice for the parents to be given a ticket now. Would you like to deliver it, along with a lecture?

Wendy W.

Certain offenses take on a new, and criminal, degree when worse things arise from them.

Leaving a gun on the table? Not a crime.
Leaving it on a table knowing a kid could get access to it, and a kid does get the gun and injures someone? Suddenly that's a serious crime.

So yes, there could be a much more significant legal issue facing the parents if, through their negligence, more serious consequences arose. I wonder if your scenario could be such a case. I think it would.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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It's a tragic situation. If blame MUST be assigned, the driver who plowed into the back looks like the most likely target right now.

That much goes without saying.

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[rehmwa 2]

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Certain offenses take on a new, and criminal, degree when worse things arise from them.

Leaving a gun on the table? Not a crime.
Leaving it on a table knowing a kid could get access to it, and a kid does get the gun and injures someone? Suddenly that's a serious crime.

So yes, there could be a much more significant legal issue facing the parents if, through their negligence, more serious consequences arose. I wonder if your scenario could be such a case. I think it would.

Then the law would be defined poorly.

You're still confusing civil court liability and emotional outrage against a well defined sense of legal rules.

It's the same type of thinking that creates different punishments for the same crime. hate crime legislation comes to mind.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[peregrinerose 0]

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I just want to point out that the oldest child in a family of 7 has a much higher maturity level than the youngest child in a family of 7 or than a 15 year old only child.

Not necessarily true in a family of all adopted kids... if they were adopted older, the 15 year old could have just found herself as oldest, for example.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[likearock 2]

So much for those who choose to blame the parents.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/03/bus.crash/index.html

NTSB: Trucker had little sleep before wreck that killed 7 kids

Friday, February 3, 2006; Posted: 5:31 p.m. EST (22:31 GMT)

(CNN) -- The truck driver who plowed into a car near Lake Butler, Florida, on January 25 killing seven children in a fiery crash had little sleep in the 34 hours before the wreck, investigators revealed Friday.

"Except for a short nap, he was awake for 34 hours, but I'm not prepared to tell you whether or not he was exceeding the allowable hours of service," said David Rayburn, a National Transportation Safety Board investigator.

The truck driver, 31-year-old Alvin Wilkerson, of Jacksonville, Florida, has not cooperated with NTSB investigators on the advice of his attorney, Rayburn said. Investigators were able to determine he had been awake for an inordinate amount of time by examining records and interviewing many people.

"We know that he was doing something almost continuously during those hours that he couldn't have been doing if he was asleep," Rayburn said at a news conference, without elaborating.

No drugs or alcohol were found in Wilkerson's system, Florida Highway Patrol Lt. Bill Leeper said.

The driver of the car was 15-year-old Cynthia Nicole Mann, who had six other children, all but one related, in the car with her at the time. Two of the children were 13 and the others were 15, 9, 2 and 20 months. Mann's parents were in the process of adopting the 20-month-old.

In Florida it is illegal for a 15-year-old to drive without an adult being in the car.

Mann, who had only a learner's permit, was stopped behind a school bus and talking on her cell phone when the semi truck smashed into her January 25.

The truck's cab overturned, Mann's car caught fire and, Rayburn said, three children on the school bus were ejected from the back and had to be transported to hospitals by helicopter. Wilkerson suffered burn injuries.

Compounding the Mann family's grief, the children's grandfather suffered a massive heart attack and died when he learned of the crash.

The Florida Department of Highway Safety said Wilkerson had been cited in the past -- in 2000 and 2001 for operating a vehicle in unsafe conditions and in 2000 for driving with a suspended or revoked license.

Wilkerson's truck was traveling between 50 and 65 mph when it hit Mann's car, police said, adding that there was no evidence Wilkerson tried to stop before the early afternoon crash. Marks on the road showed that he veered away only after the initial impact, police said.

It could be a year before the NTSB issues its final determination of what caused the crash. However, Union County Sheriff Jerry Whitehead said charges could be filed against Wilkerson within a month, when state authorities finish their investigation.