Canadians Vote Against "Arrogant" Liberals, Elect Conservative Government

[kallend 2,148]

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I didn't say they were. I said, WHAT IF they were?

Should an incumbent that's doing a great job be ousted just for being an incumbent? That seems rather silly.

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If pigs could fly....

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[smiles 0]

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Why? Afraid the liberals would have to stop lining heir own pockets with tax payers money?

None of the major political parties come close in supporting my politcal choice. Mine was a protest vote.

The NDP used to be the party of protest , but now is full of higher purpose persons which support a strong special interest lobby, NDP do not support the common people.

The Reform morphed into the Alliance, which morphed into the Conservatives. Now the Conservatives are full of right wing neocons, with a strong Christian bent. The Conservatives will support back to basic type people, "God bless Canada!"

The Liberals believe they have a devine right to rule and treat the West as shit, funding dubious programs mainly to keep their cronies recieving government paycheques.

Without constitutional change anything given to B.C. will depend on the ruling party.
As a British Columbian all I want from the confederation of Canada is my fair share.
Nothing more , nothing less.

The Conservatives have stated that they will begin that change. They deserve a chance to prove that as minority.

SMiles

eustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being.

[Amazon 7]

Cool welcome to the Coalition Team in Iraq.
Want to bet on how long it will be till CF are serving alongside US and the Brits?

Edited to add Iraq

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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the Conservatives are full of right wing neocons, with a strong Christian bent. The Conservatives will support back to basic type people, "God bless Canada!"

Stephen Harper is an economist and a damn smart one at that. Don't you want a smart business oriented person in charge of one of the country's most important jobs? People who follow business have known Harper's economic reputation for years. He's not this neo-con right wing nut case the media and Liberals try to paint him out to be. Is he a little too GWB'ish with his "God bless Canada" and religious beliefs? Probably more than your average agnostic would like to see, but this agnostic is willing to give the guy a chance to see what kind of a job he can do running the country. I mean after all he can't be as bad and corrupt as the last guy can he? He is an economist and I trust him that he's not going to do something stupid which will hurt a lot of people. He's a smart man. And besides, even if he had a strong majority in Parliament (which he doesn't have), the Senate is still controlled by the Liberals. So he can't push a neo-con right wing agenda despite the scare tactics the Liberals (and NDP to some extend) tried to do for every conservative politician who comes around.

But I would like to see the Conservative Party back off on the recently passed "same sex" bill. Capitalism and the free markets are all about the freedom of choice. Freedom is a powerful word. It's a word tainted with plenty of blood spilled by those willing to give their lives so that we can live in a free market society like we find ourselves in today. So give people regardless of their orientation, the freedom to choose how they want to live their lives as long as their lives do not directly hurt someone else's existence.

Ultimately it comes down to where you view the world. If you think the able body individual should be responsible for making their own way in life, then yes with a little tinkering we can find some common ground in this confederation to make things work for most if not all Canadians. But if you think the government is solely responsible for your well being, then we've got some irreconcilable differences.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Want to bet on how long it will be till CF are serving alongside US and the Brits?

They're in Afghanistan right now. But I sure hope we don't see them in Iraq. The US needs to be thinking of pulling out of there in the not too distant future. Adding more people to the mix isn't going to help anything.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Amazon 7]

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They're in Afghanistan right now. But I sure hope we don't see them in Iraq. The US needs to be thinking of pulling out of there in the not too distant future. Adding more people to the mix isn't going to help anything

Oh I know they are there.


I am thinking we will be going into Syria under some pretense soon enough( terroist bases, Iraq's WMD was sent there, etc.), I guess that is one way to "withdraw" from Iraq.
I am really hoping our ubber patriots in our governments do not try to go to Iran under the whole.... "they are developing nukes and there will be mushrooms over American Cities any day now" thing.

[Channman 2]

> This thread is so very happy.

I'm hopping aboard this train, Kalland, Lawrocket, Bill, yourself and little old me, someone must be passing around the mushroom tea.

Kalland, said it best, if we could throw the incumbents out more often we would surely be better off.

[smiles 0]

Stephen Harper only won, and barely won, because he pretended to be well farther to the left than he actually is. He had to. The new prime minister has the support of less than 36 percent of the population. This is not a mandate to do anything but tread political water. His right-wing promises are history because he has no mandate, nor the numbers, to pursue them.

Now that the election is over the populist right could begin in earnest, and not just from supporters. Harper managed to keep his old Reform MPs quiet for 55 days. To keep them, especially the right-wing Christians and anti-abortionists, quiet until the next election would take divine intervention.

It remains to be seen how Harper will carve out a political image suitable to his task of winning a majority 18 to 24 months from now. He has brought in some experienced Tories from the Mulroney era to help in the transition, but he still has Tom Flanagan, chief from right-wing Calgary School, as his close confidant.

My opinion….Marrying evangelism and Strauss is about as scary as it gets.

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Neo-con to Theo-con
The speech Harper gave to Civitas in 2003:
http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism/Posts/00002285.html
Civitas is a network of Canadian neoconservative and libertarian academics, politicians, journalists and think tank propagandists. In 2003 Harper's adviser Tom Flanagan was an active member of Civitas, along with Conservative MP Jason Kenney, Brian Lee Crowley, head of the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies and Michel Kelly-Gagnon of the Montreal Economic Institute, the second and third most important right-wing think tanks after the Fraser Institute.

Civitas is top-heavy with journalists to promote the cause. Lorne Gunter of the National Post is president. Members include Janet Jackson (Calgary Sun) and Danielle Smith (Calgary Herald). Journalists Colby Cosh, William Watson and Andrew Coyne (all National Post) have made presentations to Civitas.)
---The state should take a more activist role in policing social norms and values, Harper told the assembled conservatives. To achieve this goal, social and economic conservatives must reunite as they have in the U.S., where evangelical Christians and business rule in an unholy alliance. Red Tories must be jettisoned from the party, he said, and alliances forged with ethnic and immigrant communities who currently vote Liberal but espouse traditional family values. This was the successful strategy counselled by the neocons under Ronald Reagan to pull conservative Democrats into the Republican tent.
Movement towards the goal must be "incremental," he said, so the public won't be spooked.
Regime change, one step at a time.---

Lines straight out of the American neo-con playbook?
Re: Thomas Flanagan, Conservative Party Insider

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Aboriginal Culture is Inferior and Primitive
“European Civilization was several thousand years more advanced than the aboriginal cultures of North America, both in technology and social organization.”

Colonization of Aboriginal Peoples was Inevitable and Justifiable
“Owing to this tremendous gap in civilization, the European colonization of North America was inevitable and, if we accept the philosophical analysis of John Locke and Emer de Vattel, justifiable.”

Aboriginal Peoples are Incapable of Governing Themselves
“Sovereignty is an attribute of statehood, and aboriginal peoples in Canada had not arrived at the state level of political organization prior to contact with Europeans.”

“Aboriginal government is fraught with difficulties stemming from small size, an overly ambitious agenda, and dependence on transfer payments.”

“In practice, aboriginal government produces wasteful, destructive, familistic factionalism.”

Aboriginal Peoples Must Assimilate
“Perhaps the damage to Canada would be tolerable if it meant that aboriginal peoples would escape from the social pathologies in which they are mired to become prosperous, self-supporting citizens”

“Prosperity and self-sufficiency in the modern economy require a willingness to integrate into the economy, which means, among other things, a willingness to move to where jobs and investment opportunities exist.”

“Current public policy… is flooding reserves with money, enticing people back, enticing people to stay and weakening their resolve to participate in Canadian society.”

Aboriginal Rights and Treaties Should Be Ignored
“The treaties mean what they say. Their reinterpretation… has the potential to be both expensive and mischievous for the economies of all provinces in which treaties have been signed.”

“Contemporary judicial attempts to redefine aboriginal rights are producing little but uncertainty. Recent Supreme Court of Canada decisions define aboriginal title in a way that will make its use impossible in a modern economy.”
Thomas Flanagan, Conservative Party Insider

SMiles

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Aboriginal Culture is Inferior and Primitive
“European Civilization was several thousand years more advanced than the aboriginal cultures of North America, both in technology and social organization.”

Colonization of Aboriginal Peoples was Inevitable and Justifiable
“Owing to this tremendous gap in civilization, the European colonization of North America was inevitable and, if we accept the philosophical analysis of John Locke and Emer de Vattel, justifiable.”

Aboriginal Peoples are Incapable of Governing Themselves
“Sovereignty is an attribute of statehood, and aboriginal peoples in Canada had not arrived at the state level of political organization prior to contact with Europeans.”

“Aboriginal government is fraught with difficulties stemming from small size, an overly ambitious agenda, and dependence on transfer payments.”

“In practice, aboriginal government produces wasteful, destructive, familistic factionalism.”

Aboriginal Peoples Must Assimilate
“Perhaps the damage to Canada would be tolerable if it meant that aboriginal peoples would escape from the social pathologies in which they are mired to become prosperous, self-supporting citizens”

“Prosperity and self-sufficiency in the modern economy require a willingness to integrate into the economy, which means, among other things, a willingness to move to where jobs and investment opportunities exist.”

“Current public policy… is flooding reserves with money, enticing people back, enticing people to stay and weakening their resolve to participate in Canadian society.”

Aboriginal Rights and Treaties Should Be Ignored
“The treaties mean what they say. Their reinterpretation… has the potential to be both expensive and mischievous for the economies of all provinces in which treaties have been signed.”

“Contemporary judicial attempts to redefine aboriginal rights are producing little but uncertainty. Recent Supreme Court of Canada decisions define aboriginal title in a way that will make its use impossible in a modern economy.”
Thomas Flanagan, Conservative Party Insider

The headers to these quotes are laughable....it is pretty clear that many of these statements may have bene taken completely out of context.

But, I would like you to refute any of them. Show me one that isn't true.

[larskjargaard 0]

My 2 cents
I don't think you will ever see Canada joining the coalition in Iraq. There is just too many unknowns involved for the average Canadian to endorse that war. I'm optomistic about the new GOV there was no better outcome in My oppinion and I'm far from conservative. Now lets see If our new PM can play ball with the rest of the house.

[smiles 0]

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The headers to these quotes are laughable....it is pretty clear that many of these statements may have bene taken completely out of context.

books he has written:
-Flanagan, T. (1991) Metis Lands in Manitoba, Calgary: University of Calgary Press.
-(1996) Louis ‘David’ Riel: Prophet of the New World, Toronto: University of Toronto Press.
-(2000a) Riel and the Rebellion: 1885 Reconsidered, Toronto: University of Toronto Press.
-(2000b) First Nations? Second Thoughts, Montreal and Kingston: McGill-Queen’s University Press.

“First Nations? Second Thoughts” espousing the idea that Aboriginal people were merely immigrants and the best thing for all involved would be assimilating them into mainstream culture.

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I would like you to refute any of them. Show me one that isn't true.

I can refute with my opinion but my opinion isn't based on what is- or isn't "true."

re: “Europeans are, in effect, a new immigrant wave, taking control of land just as earlier aboriginal settlers did. To differentiate the rights of earlier and later immigrants is a form of racism.” – Thomas Flanagan, Conservative Party Insider‘

The vanquished in the course of colonial history were commonly denied rights precisely along lines of race, to the calculated advantage of the newcomers who seized property and control.

To suggest that Aboriginal people should now be denied differential rights on grounds that this would be racist, -I feel is a double standard.

Flanagan’s opposition to unique Aboriginal rights is also predicated on a particular view of human freedom. Society is ‘a spontaneous order that emerges from the choices of individual human beings’, wherein government makes and enforces the ‘rules that allow society to function.

Individuals naturally congregate in families and other associations, but these must be voluntary if society is to be free and Aboriginal rights are neither race-based nor racist.

They are, more accurately, inherited, not unlike the well-accepted European tradition of rights inherited along family lines. Aboriginal ownership of a disproportionate land base on the basis of inherited rights, similarly, is not inherently racist. just as Canadian citizenship is heritable, so is First Nation membership, and in both cases this is a matter of descent, not of race.

What is your opinion?

SMiles

eustress. : a positive form of stress having a beneficial effect on health, motivation, performance, and emotional well-being.

[JohnRich 4]

Here's how a big blowhard from America sees the Candian election:

Gore accuses big oil of bankrolling Tories

Former U.S. vice-president Al Gore has accused the oil industry of financially backing the Tories and their "ultra-conservative leader" to protect its stake in Alberta's lucrative oilsands.

Canadians, Gore said, should vigilantly keep watch over prime minister-designate Stephen Harper because he has a pro-oil agenda and wants to pull out of the Kyoto accord - an international agreement to combat climate change.

"The election in Canada was partly about the tar sands projects in Alberta," Gore said Wednesday while attending the Sundance Film Festival in Utah.

"And the financial interests behind the tar sands project poured a lot of money and support behind an ultra-conservative leader in order to win the election . . . and to protect their interests."

Full Story: Canada.com

[akarunway 1]

"Better relations w/ the U.S" Here's a start>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Jan 26, 5:17 PM EST

Canada Reasserts Arctic Sovereignty

By BETH DUFF-BROWN
Associated Press Writer

TORONTO (AP) -- Canada's next prime minister used his first news conference Thursday to tell the United States to mind its own business when it comes to territorial rights in the Arctic North.

Testing the notion that he would kowtow to the Bush administration, Stephen Harper, whose Conservative Party won general elections on Monday, said he would stand by a campaign pledge to increase Canada's military presence in the Arctic and put three military icebreakers in the frigid waters of the Northwest Passage.

U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins had criticized the plan Wednesday, describing the Arctic passage as "neutral waters."

"There's no reason to create a problem that doesn't exist," Wilkins said during a panel discussion at the University of Western Ontario, according to the Canadian Broadcasting Corp. "We don't recognize Canada's claims to those waters. Most other countries do not recognize their claim."

No reporter brought up the U.S. ambassador's views Thursday, but Harper said he wanted to comment on them.

"The United States defends its sovereignty; the Canadian government will defend our sovereignty," Harper said. "It is the Canadian people that we get our mandate from, not the ambassador of the United States."

Harper's surprising salvo was likely intended as a message to those in the Bush administration who might be cheering the election of a Conservative government and view Harper as a pushover when it comes to prickly U.S.-Canadian relations.

Arctic sovereignty has been a sensitive subject for decades, with U.S. Navy submarines and ships entering northern waters without asking permission. Ottawa has generally turned a blind eye to the United States' sending ships through the area.

Canadian media reported last month that a U.S. nuclear submarine traveled secretly through Canadian Arctic waters in November on its way to the North Pole.

The Northwest Passage runs from the Atlantic through the Arctic to the Pacific.

Global warming is melting the passage - which is only navigable during a slim window in the summer - and exposing unexplored fishing stocks and an attractive shipping route. Commercial ships can shave off some 2,480 miles from the trip from Europe to Asia compared with the current routes through the Panama Canal.

Harper said during a campaign speech in December he would dramatically increase Canada's military presence in the Arctic North. He intends to construct and deploy three new armed icebreaking ships and construct a $1.7 billion deep-water port and an underwater network of "listening posts."

"The single most important duty of the federal government is to protect and defend our national sovereignty," Harper said in the December speech. "There are new and disturbing reports of American nuclear submarines passing though Canadian waters without obtaining the permission of, or even notifying, the Canadian government."

Harper has not said whether he would order military action if the ships or port detected an unauthorized submarine in Arctic waters.

Harper, meanwhile, said he had a friendly conversation with President Bush on Wednesday but had not fixed a date for their first meeting. He said he had also received calls from other major allies, including Mexican President Vicente Fox, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Australian Prime Minister John Howard.

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Here's how a big blowhard from America sees the Candian election:

Gore accuses big oil of bankrolling Tories

Former U.S. vice-president Al Gore has accused the oil industry of financially backing the Tories and their "ultra-conservative leader" to protect its stake in Alberta's lucrative oilsands.

Canadians, Gore said, should vigilantly keep watch over prime minister-designate Stephen Harper because he has a pro-oil agenda and wants to pull out of the Kyoto accord - an international agreement to combat climate change.

I read recently in a newspaper article or something that a LOT of the European signatories to that pact are far, far behind on reducing their "greenhouse gas" emissions -- some of them are actually significantly UP since signing the agreement.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mdrejhon 8]

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Yep. My ideal for the US would be a republican senate, a democratic house and a libertarian president. Nothing would get done unless it _really_ needed to get done.

We've already got that right now in Canada.

Well, the equivalent thereof. Sorta. Minority goverment with 4 parties bickering. (no party having more than 50% of the Parliament)

There's precedent though, that Canadian minority goverments are peoples' goverments though; historically while unstable and full of venomous politics, generally get things done "for the people".

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Is that why you have a $2 billion gun registry ... but it doesn't work?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[JohnRich 4]

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Arctic sovereignty has been a sensitive subject for decades, with U.S. Navy submarines and ships entering northern waters without asking permission.

Okay, so if the U.S. Navy asks permission first, is Canada going to say "no"? And if so, why? What are those ships hurting by traveling through that area?

[JohnRich 4]

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Is that why you have a $2 billion gun registry ... but it doesn't work?

News:

A senior Conservative MP from northern B.C. says the new Stephen Harper government will move quickly to kill Canada's controversial rifle registry.

The gun registry was originally supposed to cost less than $2 million. In December 2002, Auditor General Sheila Fraser revealed that the program would run up bills of at least $1 billion by 2005.

Harper has said he'd use the millions of dollars now spent on the gun registry to hire more police and fund a sex-offender registry.

Souce

[Richards 0]

Ouch! As we are two separate nations I realize that our politicians may disagree; I do however think that Harper will show more class when dealing with the US than Paul Martin did with his party's ridiculous anti-Americanism. I have often been embarrassed with the manner in which our politicians have acted towards their US counterparts. This incident might not be the way I was hoping things would start however I strongly feel that Harper will bridge a lot of the gaps that the Liberals created, and create a better relationship between our two countries. As I have stated already, I find it embarrassing to be the Euro-trash of North America.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[RMURRAY 1]

Okay, so if the U.S. Navy asks permission first, is Canada going to say "no"? And if so, why? What are those ships hurting by traveling through that area?

[JohnRich 4]

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(1) The US would expect to be asked before a foreign navy ship enters US waters. (2) How can you argue for the US navy on this one??????? (3) Do you just agree wtih what ever your government does??????

1) According to the article, those waters are considered international by most, so it's not clear that those are truly Canadian territory. Quote:

U.S. Ambassador David Wilkins had criticized the plan Wednesday, describing the Arctic passage as "neutral waters." "There's no reason to create a problem that doesn't exist," Wilkins said. "We don't recognize Canada's claims to those waters. Most other countries do not recognize their claim."

2) See #1 and #5.

3) No. Do you?

4) (Bonus reply) One question mark per sentence is plenty.

5) (Bonus reply #2) Further study: Wikipedia

I'm thinking of claiming all the airspace over my house as my personal property, and to defend it with stinger missiles. Does that sound reasonable to you?

[RMURRAY 1]

this discussion is about the arrogant Liberal party getting booted out of office not arrogant American foriegn policy so I will not respond. I didn't vote for Mr Harper but like what I see so far!!!

[JohnRich 4]

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this discussion is about the arrogant Liberal party getting booted out of office not arrogant American foriegn policy so I will not respond.

Well you sure seemed to want to talk about it in message #45. But I guess now that I've slapped down your argument with facts, all of a sudden you have a change of tune and don't want to talk about it any more...

[rehmwa 2]

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Well you sure seemed to want to talk about it in message #45. But I guess now that I've slapped down your argument with facts, all of a sudden you have a change of tune and don't want to talk about it any more...

No one likes the team that dances too much in the end zone.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Well you sure seemed to want to talk about it in message #45. But I guess now that I've slapped down your argument with facts, all of a sudden you have a change of tune and don't want to talk about it any more...

No one likes the team that dances too much in the end zone.

Oh, fuckin' puh-lease.

No one likes the team that won't even play the fuckin' game they challenged the other team to play as soon as it becomes clear the other team is ready to kick its ass on every play!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"