QuoteQuoteCutting jobs will not keep them in business. It will only provide a temporary reprieve. Making products people want to buy will be their only salvation.
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Being able to compete with Japanese and Korean auto makers will help. Ford and GM, have the technology to do so. Has Ford been hoping that 'Buy American' would keep them afloat? Most of the Ford and GM components, engines and drive trains, are foreign made and assembled here. Also, high wages have helped to price them out of the market.
Chuck
Funny thing is my Acura TL is made in the US by Americans and has more American parts in it than my Ford Expedition. Go figure.
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Yeah, that's nuts! My Dodge pick-up was assembled in Mexico! Several years ago, My step-dad, who was in the 'tech' portion of GM, bugged me about driving a Nissan P/U. So, when I bought a new pick-up, I bought an S-10. Thinking at the time, I was buying 'American" He informed me that, the engine and drive-train were made in Japan. The frame and sheet metal was made in the U.S. and it was all assembled here. Maybe, we should kick the foreign car makers outa here and raise the import duty so high on them they would be un-affordable and go back to making cars totally here!???
Chuck
One (and just one) of the problems with the big three US automakers is their over reliance on off-the-shelf parts to put in their 'new' models. There really hasn't been much change in basic components (drivetrain, suspension, engine, braking) that has been pioneered by the US. It's cheaper after all to use known parts instead of actually spending $$$ on R&D and testing new components.
illegible usually
billvon 3,120
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>One (and just one) of the problems with the big three US
> automakers is their over reliance on off-the-shelf parts to put in
> their 'new' models.
That's actually not a bad strategy to pursue now. If they can just get the "off the shelf" recipie down and start producing more reliable vehicles, their reputation may start recovering. They did this for their hybrid Escape - the hybrid system itself is an almost-stock THS system from Toyota.
> automakers is their over reliance on off-the-shelf parts to put in
> their 'new' models.
That's actually not a bad strategy to pursue now. If they can just get the "off the shelf" recipie down and start producing more reliable vehicles, their reputation may start recovering. They did this for their hybrid Escape - the hybrid system itself is an almost-stock THS system from Toyota.
quade 4
Wanna know what's killin' Ford and the other automakers? It's the concept of free trade at any cost. Deals made between officials in our government and foriegn countries. Deals made to sell products in this country with prices so low that American companies simply can not compete.
Google "Geely" and see what you come up with.
There is simply no way an American auto manufacturer can possibly compete with a car being imported from China with labor at about $3 per hour and sold in the US for under $10,000.
Google "Geely" and see what you come up with.
There is simply no way an American auto manufacturer can possibly compete with a car being imported from China with labor at about $3 per hour and sold in the US for under $10,000.
quade -
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PhreeZone 20
Ford is set to announce they will be eliminating their minivan line of vechicles in the next 2-3 years. They were also said to be eliminating another line but I can't remember which one (maybe the SUV larger then the Expedition?). The quote I heard recent was "If we can't be #1 or #2 in a class, its not worth us to be in it" Thats a huge difference from the "we have to be in every class no matter the cost" thinking that they used to have.
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Parachutemanuals.com
QuoteWanna know what's killin' Ford and the other automakers? It's the concept of free trade at any cost. Deals made between officials in our government and foriegn countries. Deals made to sell products in this country with prices so low that American companies simply can not compete.
Google "Geely" and see what you come up with.
There is simply no way an American auto manufacturer can possibly compete with a car being imported from China with labor at about $3 per hour and sold in the US for under $10,000.
Then explain to me how Acura can produce one of the highest rated technologically advanced automobiles inside the US using US workers.
QuoteFord is set to announce they will be eliminating their minivan line of vechicles in the next 2-3 years. They were also said to be eliminating another line but I can't remember which one (maybe the SUV larger then the Expedition?). The quote I heard recent was "If we can't be #1 or #2 in a class, its not worth us to be in it" Thats a huge difference from the "we have to be in every class no matter the cost" thinking that they used to have.
Ford and GM's only problem right now is they have invested heavily in DUVs and Vans which aren't popular anymore due to high gas prices and the future outlook of same. Once they re-tool and start making vehicles which consumers want to buy, they will be fine.
quade 4
Quote
Then explain to me how Acura can produce one of the highest rated technologically advanced automobiles inside the US using US workers.
Um . . . look for the Union lable?
http://www.overthehillcarpeople.com/foreignowned.htm
Again, this is a situation where our own government officials have set up favorable situations for foriegn car companies to make cars at lower costs than what our legacy U.S. auto makers have been able to compete with.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
The World's Most Boring Skydiver
billvon 3,120
>Once they re-tool and start making vehicles which consumers want to
>buy, they will be fine.
And that are affordable, which is the kicker in the US. Doable, though, if they can get their act together and (more importantly) deal with their unions.
>buy, they will be fine.
And that are affordable, which is the kicker in the US. Doable, though, if they can get their act together and (more importantly) deal with their unions.
rwieder 0
QuoteAgain, this is a situation where our own government officials have set up favorable situations for foriegn car companies to make cars at lower costs than what our legacy U.S. auto makers have been able to compete with.
This is carzy. This is not isolated to the automobile industry. I've raised Cattle all of my life. The major cattle ranch owners in the midwest are selling thier dairy farms and cattle ranches in droves at a fair profit margin to the Japaneze. It's no secret the American farmer is going under as well. Why?
I'm not real clear on this other than the foriegners have more $$$ than americans, they have a small country and their sick of eating fish? How is it we can't stay in business, running our own automobile plants, employing our own citizens. I see a lot of outsourcing and foriegners coming to the USA, building automobile manufacturing plants and are now building their vehichles here, employing OUR citizens. WHAT!?!?! (David Letterman)
I see casing that we run in the ground in our oil and gas wells in the USA, it's all Japaneze steel, Nippon steel. WHAT!?!? (David Letterman) Volkswagons being manufactured in Mexico. WHAT!?!? (David Letterman)
We're shooting ourselves in the foot. Where does it stop? Henry Ford is the one that dreamed up the assembly line to "produce cheap cars for all americans" He insisted that every American have an automobile. He's probably doing barrell rolls in his coffin right now. It's Sad.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"
billvon 3,120
>How is it we can't stay in business, running our own automobile plants, employing our own citizens.
Because people shop at Wal-Mart instead of at local stores. Because they "don't want to spend a lot for this muffler!" Because they prefer cars that cost less and are more reliable.
None of which is wrong or bad; that's how capitalism works. But it does mean that people in countries with lower costs of living get all the jobs.
>He insisted that every American have an automobile. He's
>probably doing barrell rolls in his coffin right now.
Why? The average american family has something like 3 cars now. His dream is a reality.
Because people shop at Wal-Mart instead of at local stores. Because they "don't want to spend a lot for this muffler!" Because they prefer cars that cost less and are more reliable.
None of which is wrong or bad; that's how capitalism works. But it does mean that people in countries with lower costs of living get all the jobs.
>He insisted that every American have an automobile. He's
>probably doing barrell rolls in his coffin right now.
Why? The average american family has something like 3 cars now. His dream is a reality.
QuoteQuote
Then explain to me how Acura can produce one of the highest rated technologically advanced automobiles inside the US using US workers.
Um . . . look for the Union lable?
http://www.overthehillcarpeople.com/foreignowned.htm
Again, this is a situation where our own government officials have set up favorable situations for foriegn car companies to make cars at lower costs than what our legacy U.S. auto makers have been able to compete with.
But this isn't what you originally said. You said:
QuoteThere is simply no way an American auto manufacturer can possibly compete with a car being imported from China with labor at about $3 per hour and sold in the US for under $10,000.
Acura's aren't made in China, Japan, Mexico or anywhere else. They are made right here in America by Americans and they compete with anything coming out of the aforementioned countries.
As I see it, two of the major problems confronting American automobile manufacturers are union demands, which by the way Acura-America is non-union and long term financial commitments by US Co's to pensions etc. (ie. Unions).
rwieder 0
QuoteAcura's aren't made in China, Japan, Mexico or anywhere else. They are made right here in America by Americans and they compete with anything coming out of the aforementioned countries.
Why? I would love to think that we as Americans are as intelligent as anyone in Japan, or anyother country in the world.
QuoteAs I see it, two of the major problems confronting American automobile manufacturers are union demands, which by the way Acura-America is non-union and long term financial commitments by US Co's to pensions etc. (ie. Unions)
How long will this last? All of the people who will migrate south after the automobile plants close down and there is no where else to work sooner or later a union will more than likely be formed. What are your thoughts.
The way i see it, it costs way too much money to do anything, or build anything here in the USA that outsourcing and allowing the "Invaders" to come on our soil and build their vehichles and sell them to us seems to be trendy, that's sad. Our govenor Rick Perry, and our President GWB swear to god our borders are secure. Over 3,500 illegal immigrants cross the Rio Grande and enter our borders everyday. No wonder our farmers are going broke.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"
billvon 3,120
> allowing the "Invaders" to come on our soil and build their
>vehichles and sell them to us seems to be trendy, that's sad.
It's sad that US workers are building cars in the US for US customers? I think that's actually a pretty good thing.
>vehichles and sell them to us seems to be trendy, that's sad.
It's sad that US workers are building cars in the US for US customers? I think that's actually a pretty good thing.
rwieder 0
Your missing the point i'm trying to make. Yeah, they're working for a foriegn car company. All they will ever have is a paycheck. A foreign car company will hardly do anything to help bolster "Made In America" by americans, but it's a foreign brand car. When do you think the Germans will build a Porsche factory. Italians build a Lamborgini factory? That won't happen, because they take pride in their cars being made by their citizens. A Japaneze car is hardly a Japaneze car if it's built here by American laborers, and owned and managed by the Japaneze.
Don't ignore the fact that 3rd world countries are utilizing our soil for their own benefits. I mean, they're not here because it's fun. And we're SELLING OUT.
Don't ignore the fact that 3rd world countries are utilizing our soil for their own benefits. I mean, they're not here because it's fun. And we're SELLING OUT.
-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"
QuoteOf course, these jobs will be cut by 2012. So it is not coming immediately. ANother thing - I guess the company can keep going like it is and go out of business, causing 100,000-150,000 jobs lost.
A total of 14 plants are to close by 2012. 7 plants will be closed by 2008. The 7 are St. Louis, Atlanta, Wixom, Batavia, Windsor and two more to be announced later this year. I have several friends whom have already been laid off at the Hazelwood plant (St. Louis) a couple years ago when the first announcement came that this was going to happen. Then governor Jim Talent and reps from the city of Hazelwood worked a deal to keep the plant operating as a hub for a few more years. The taxpayers of Mo. have been paying a large sum of the operating cost of this plant even though a good number of people went out the door.
Ford, GM, and Dodge need to get on the band wagon and produce cars that people want and quite trying to shove oversize, overpriced crap down the throats of the consumer. Honda has the number one selling truck today even though they have only been in the truck market but a year or two. Why? Because it is pure quality at a great price. Another reason is that they listen to what people want and give just that. They take care of their customers, unlike the Big 3. The last new truck I bought was a Ford. When it came time for Ford to make good on their warrenty I got blown off time and time again. When they did finally "fix" the problem it took more than 2 weeks and they did not fix the problem. I ended up buy an aftermarket part and installing it myself. I was told that doing so will void my warrenty. I told the dealer to fuck off. The same was with Jeep back in 1984. The folks I know whom have had to take a honda or whatever in to the dealership could not be happier and glad for their choice in automobile. If I am to ever buy another new car, it will not be one from the Big 3.
As far as wages go the so called "foreign companies" pay the same as the so called "american companies". They also provide incentive to show up and do the best you can. A friend at the Maryville, Ohio Honda plant once talked of monthly "bonus checks" for not missing or showing late. This man left a railroad job that paid close to $50,000 in 1990 to work there. He is still there and couldn't be happier for it. It is not wages that is killing the Big 3, it is cars and trucks that are not realistic to what people want. How many people do you know whom have bought an oversize truck and only use it for the drive to work and back. I know a few and also know that they are trying to get rid of them. Good luck. Buy a Honda, it is more American than you think.
"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young
billvon 3,120
>All they will ever have is a paycheck.
A paycheck from a foreign company and a paycheck of the same value from an american company will buy the same number of margaritas.
Also, I know quite a few people who work for Kyocera over here; we often work with them. Many of them used to work for Qualcomm. They get the same sort of job satisfaction, similar bonuses, and similar retirement options. (Many of them never even moved their offices when that division got sold to Kyocera!) It matters little to most people whether the person who signs their paycheck lives in Los Angeles or Narita.
>A Japaneze car is hardly a Japaneze car if it's built here by American
>laborers, and owned and managed by the Japaneze.
Fine with me! Call it a "japamerican" car or whatever. I think it's a good thing overall that americans can get jobs building cars in the US.
>Don't ignore the fact that 3rd world countries are utilizing our soil
>for their own benefits.
As are we. There are hundreds of maqiladoras by the border here, and there are dozens of joint partnerships between US and chinese company, where we use their cheap labor and cheap real estate to make OUR products more competitive.
>I mean, they're not here because it's fun.
You think Dongguan, China is more fun than La Jolla, California? I've been in both places, and I have to say I prefer La Jolla. (Although Dongguan can be quite an adventure on its own . . .)
A paycheck from a foreign company and a paycheck of the same value from an american company will buy the same number of margaritas.
Also, I know quite a few people who work for Kyocera over here; we often work with them. Many of them used to work for Qualcomm. They get the same sort of job satisfaction, similar bonuses, and similar retirement options. (Many of them never even moved their offices when that division got sold to Kyocera!) It matters little to most people whether the person who signs their paycheck lives in Los Angeles or Narita.
>A Japaneze car is hardly a Japaneze car if it's built here by American
>laborers, and owned and managed by the Japaneze.
Fine with me! Call it a "japamerican" car or whatever. I think it's a good thing overall that americans can get jobs building cars in the US.
>Don't ignore the fact that 3rd world countries are utilizing our soil
>for their own benefits.
As are we. There are hundreds of maqiladoras by the border here, and there are dozens of joint partnerships between US and chinese company, where we use their cheap labor and cheap real estate to make OUR products more competitive.
>I mean, they're not here because it's fun.
You think Dongguan, China is more fun than La Jolla, California? I've been in both places, and I have to say I prefer La Jolla. (Although Dongguan can be quite an adventure on its own . . .)
Channman 2
> I think the US car companies need to work on their reputations for performance and reliability. The trend I've noticed here (LA area) is that when people want a performance car, they buy a German one (Porche, BMW) and when they want something cheap and reliable, they get a Honda, because US cars aren't really known for either their performance or their reliability. They don't seem to have a really strong selling point beyond "made in America" which, while important, doesn't outweigh the reliability factor for many people.
What ever happened to the term "Build Better, Build Union" Maybe the Union is part of the problem. When a large percentage of your operating cost is Benefits, it can be very difficult to compete with foreign markets, on top of that building crappy cars.
What ever happened to the term "Build Better, Build Union" Maybe the Union is part of the problem. When a large percentage of your operating cost is Benefits, it can be very difficult to compete with foreign markets, on top of that building crappy cars.
Yeap, this is depressing news... the U.K car (and coal & steel etc.. ) industry has been through it and continuely loose jobs to 'foriegn' companies.... (IT outsource is the latest, but most people dont care, because they think that we softies have been having it too good for so long )
Globalisation..... stinks when it affects you adversely ......
So what do you do? Close your borders and increase import tarifs.... What with your countries balance of payments problems? ... If you wont buy stuff from other countries, they sure as hell aren't going to be buying yours... vicious circle....
Thus you still need to work the international markets and the only ways to compete now are through increased efficiency and/or via technological advantage (better & cheaper)..
Still stinks tho'
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
)
Globalisation..... stinks when it affects you adversely ......
So what do you do? Close your borders and increase import tarifs.... What with your countries balance of payments problems? ... If you wont buy stuff from other countries, they sure as hell aren't going to be buying yours... vicious circle....
Thus you still need to work the international markets and the only ways to compete now are through increased efficiency and/or via technological advantage (better & cheaper)..
Still stinks tho'
(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome
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Being able to compete with Japanese and Korean auto makers will help. Ford and GM, have the technology to do so. Has Ford been hoping that 'Buy American' would keep them afloat? Most of the Ford and GM components, engines and drive trains, are foreign made and assembled here. Also, high wages have helped to price them out of the market.
Chuck
Funny thing is my Acura TL is made in the US by Americans and has more American parts in it than my Ford Expedition. Go figure.