Crime: Canada vs. United States

[JohnRich 4]

In the news (excerpts):

Reaping what we sow

After a spasm of heart-rending, frightening violence, Toronto's Mayor, David Miller, and its news media want Torontonians to remember one thing: The city is very, very safe. Really.

Feel better now? Well, don't. The Prime Minister, the Mayor and the media are hiding crucial facts. Here are three:

1) America's crime problem has dramatically improved, while Canada's is becoming seriously worse. Toronto's 78 homicides represent a 28% increase from 1995. Meanwhile, the three U.S. cities cited by the Star each achieved dramatic decreases over the past decade: Chicago down 46%, Washington down 46%, Baltimore down 17%.

More broadly: Canada's overall crime rate is now 50% higher than the crime rate in the United States.

2) America's crime problem is becoming concentrated in ever fewer places, while Canada's is spreading out to ever more places.

In the United States since the early 1990s, crime rates have dropped in 48 of the 50 states and 80% of American cities. Over that same period, crime rates have risen in six of the 10 Canadian provinces and in seven of Canada's 10 biggest cities.

3) While American cities and states are adopting anti-crime policies proved to work, Canadian cities and provinces are adopting policies proved to fail.

A Canadian criminal is 80% less likely to go to jail than his American counterpart.

Canada employs 25% fewer police officers per capita than the United States.

It is not guns from across the border that threaten Canadians. It is the weak and cynical policies of home-grown politicians, and especially the Chretien/Martin Liberals. The $2-billion wasted on the gun registry could have paid for more cops, more prisons, more of everything that would protect the lives and security of Canadians. It is the federal Liberal government that releases young offenders back into the community, the federal Liberals who appoint the judges who refuse to punish, the federal Liberals who run the prison system as if it were a summer camp, the federal Liberals who refuse to deport immigrants who break the law, the federal Liberals who have subordinated public safety to ethnic politics...

Full story: National Post

[Trae 1]

in reply to " It is the federal Liberal government that releases young offenders back into the community, the federal Liberals who appoint the judges who refuse to punish, the federal Liberals who run the prison system as if it were a summer camp, the federal Liberals who refuse to deport immigrants who break the law, the federal Liberals who have subordinated public safety to ethnic politics..."
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Makes me wonder if these federal liberals have a vested interest in keeping the crime rate up.

Report from the wilderness...............

In Oz similar things appear to be happening.
Many violent criminals get released back into the community until they re-offend in ever more violent ways.
One recent example in my local area is of a guy who stalked his neighbour , shot him in his own home and was then released because the judge reckoned he acted 'out of character" .

Other examples are abundant and just in my local area. One guy killed his mum but was released to live in her home after they got his medication right. Just the other day a woman ran onto the road screaming in front of me trying to get away from her man who then turned on me for daring to stop and help.

Ordinary law abiding upwardly mobile citizns just can't believe its all happening. They hide in their little safe enclaves and put us poor folk down.

I've tried telling some people what's going on and they just don't believe me. When it happens to them they wonder why you just shrug and say " you didn't listen to me"

We have a government that ignores the poor and a media that won't report the truth.
It's difficult to find any-one who gives a shyte they're so busy rushing around.


We got Liberals in charge here too.

[sfc 1]

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In the news (excerpts):

Reaping what we sow

1) America's crime problem has dramatically improved, while Canada's is becoming seriously worse. Toronto's 78 homicides represent a 28% increase from 1995. Meanwhile, the three U.S. cities cited by the Star each achieved dramatic decreases over the past decade: Chicago down 46%, Washington down 46%, Baltimore down 17%.

Chicago had 450 last year
DC had 420
Baltimore had 269
Toronto had 78

This article is comparing apples with oranges, fairly typical pro-gun BS.

[JohnRich 4]

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Chicago had 450 last year
DC had 420
Baltimore had 269
Toronto had 78

This article is comparing apples with oranges.

So, even though Toronto's murder rate has gone up 28% in the last 10 years, that doesn't bother you, because it's not as bad as Chicago, DC or Baltimore, three of the worst cities in America?

Well, that's a wonderful standard for determining acceptable murder rates.

So I guess that you'll admit Toronto has a problem, only when Toronto has 450 murders in a year, a 577% increase over the current level. Then, by gosh, and only then, you'll be outraged!

Go ahead, stick your head in the sand and ignore it... Don't worry. You can always say with great glee: "We're not as bad as Chicago!"

[narcimund 0]

I see somebody understands that statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[kelpdiver 2]

uh, John. Toronto is having a real problem. Huge upspike in murders, and quite a few of them with guns. San Francisco is going nuts over a similar number the last 2 years, supposedly the basis for Prop H (though we all know better). Not sure this concern is legitimate - 100 deaths in a 1 million person city is still a lower death rate than we seen with driving.

The problem here is you're generalizing Toronto to equal Canada. I can't even call that a reach - it's far dumber or dishonest.

[Samurai136 0]

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I see somebody understands that statistics don't lie but liars use statistics.

I'm not certain what JR thinks about this article.

My reading suggests that Mr. Frum (see original link) believes the increase in Canadian crime is due to weak law enforcement and government in-action.

Mostly, I think the article is poorly written and misleading. Yes, Toronto saw a 28% increase in murders from 1995 (61) to 2005(78). Yes, Chicago saw a 46% reduction in murders over the same period (823/445). Compared city to city, Toronto was 92.6% safer than Chicago in 1995. By 2005 Toronto was 82.5% safer than Chicago.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[sfc 1]

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Chicago had 450 last year
DC had 420
Baltimore had 269
Toronto had 78

This article is comparing apples with oranges.

So, even though Toronto's murder rate has gone up 28% in the last 10 years, that doesn't bother you, because it's not as bad as Chicago, DC or Baltimore, three of the worst cities in America?


No I did not say that it did not bother me, I said that the article is comparing data that is not compatible.
The "spike" in Toronto is 17 extra deaths. That number is almost lost in the noise in the US cities compared in this report.

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Well, that's a wonderful standard for determining acceptable murder rates.

So I guess that you'll admit Toronto has a problem, only when Toronto has 450 murders in a year, a 577% increase over the current level. Then, by gosh, and only then, you'll be outraged!

Again drawing conclusions from my post that are not valid. I did not say they do not have a problem. I hope that they can figure out how to remedy it. Comparing them with the US murder capitals is silly and unhelpful.
The article is written to be sensational, it is pro-gun garbage aimed at causing outrage. This goal was achieved, as is evident by you posting it.
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[JohnRich 4]

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The problem here is you're generalizing Toronto to equal Canada. I can't even call that a reach - it's far dumber or dishonest.

It twern't me that did it, but rather the author of the quoted news story.

[JohnRich 4]

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it is pro-gun garbage aimed at causing outrage.

I don't know why you're focusing on the gun issue. The author took swipes at a lot of other things too, including law enforcement, the court system, and politicians. All of those have a bearing on crime.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The problem here is you're generalizing Toronto to equal Canada. I can't even call that a reach - it's far dumber or dishonest.

It twern't me that did it, but rather the author of the quoted news story.

Are you now posting columns you don't agree with, John?

[Richards 0]

These figures indicate that there are roughly five times as many murders in the US as in Canada however they have ten times our population. Proportionally ours is twice theirs based on those numbers.

Our politicians in Canada love to make comparisons to the US and feed the Canadian superiority complex by twisting things to make it look like things are better here.

In reality while the US has historically had a greater crime problem than Canada, theirs is on the decline while ours is on the rise. In the US politicians came to realize that they had a problem and were willing to make hard decisions even though those decisions would be unpopular and might lose them some votes. The Canadian courts and government lack the stomach to make some of these hard decisions, because they are afraid that special interest groups will take offence to any real anti-crime initiative and might not vote for them in the next election.

Our politicians seem obsessed with continuing to apply useless feel good crime fighting measures like;...Sending cops into rough neighborhoods to play basketball with local youth...Lamenting about how more basketball courts and community centres will make these gangsters put down their guns...etc.

It has become ridiculous here. The thugs on the street are laughing because they know that our authorities will do nothing to them. Every time these thugs commit an act of violence, our authorities remind the public to be sympathetic because these thugs are apparently "poor disadvantaged misunderstood victims of exclusion". Yet should a Canadian act in self defense in any effective manner, he will have his life ruined by the courts because Canadians are not allowed to defend themselves. So if you are a thug and you know the courts will not really punish you but they will throw the book at your intended victim if he/she hurts you in self defense WHERE IS THE DETERENCE???!!!!!

I would not mind being unable to arm myself for defense if our authorities would do something to ensure my safety but they won't.

Therefore it should not be a surprise that our crime is on the rise while America's is on the decline. We are merely reaping what we have sown from years of extreme left wing liberalism. Perhaps if we get our heads out of our asses and stop acting like the snotty Anti-American Euro trash of North America we might actually be able to come up with a sensible solution to our problems.

I like to think that the upcoming election will bring about some change but perhaps I am being naïve. Canadians fear progressive change and would rather let Uncle Paul make their decisions for them.

Cheers’n’beers,

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[kallend 2,175]

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Meanwhile, the three U.S. cities cited by the Star each achieved dramatic decreases over the past decade: Chicago down 46%, Washington down 46%, Baltimore down 17%.

[/url]

Looks like that gun control in Chicago, Maryland and Washington is working, eh John?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[masterblaster72 0]

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More broadly: Canada's overall crime rate is now 50% higher than the crime rate in the United States.

Is this a effing joke or what.

I'd love to see the statistical acrobatics the writer pulls to back up that doozy.

Mr. Rich, do you honestly believe that Canada, which has a bit over 1/10 the population of the United States, really has an overall crime rate 50% higher than the US does?

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[kallend 2,175]

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More broadly: Canada's overall crime rate is now 50% higher than the crime rate in the United States.

Is this a effing joke or what.

I'd love to see the statistical acrobatics the writer pulls to back up that doozy.

Mr. Rich, do you honestly believe that Canada, which has a bit over 1/10 the population of the United States, really has an overall crime rate 50% higher than the US does?

It all depends on the meaning of "rate", and how the crimes are counted, and how they are defined.

The FBI and USDoJ and a bunch of other nations' official crime recorders generally say that homicide is the only crime where legitimate comparisons are possible.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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The problem here is you're generalizing Toronto to equal Canada. I can't even call that a reach - it's far dumber or dishonest.

It twern't me that did it, but rather the author of the quoted news story.

Are you now posting columns you don't agree with, John?

Sometimes I do that, because contrast can be a good way to make a point. But that is not the case with me here.

However, my comment (above) was about your incorrect attribution, not about whether or not I agreed with it. Just because I may agree with a news story, doesn't mean that I'm responsible for the content of the story.

Here's a related Canadian follow-up story:
Statistics Indicate Gun Control Only Increases Crime

And a similar one from England:
Capital gun crime rises by 50 per cent

[JohnRich 4]

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Looks like that gun control in Chicago, Maryland and Washington is working, eh John?

If you're trying to suggest that I think gun control is the only factor involved in reducing crime, then you would be wrong.

By the way, on an unrelated note, that new thumbnail photo you have started using by your name, eerily reminds me of the Nazi eagle symbol. No, I'm not trying to suggest anything by pointing this out - I'm just saying that people might take that the wrong way. See the attached side-by-side comparison.

[AndyMan 7]

I can't tell you all how funny it is to watch a bunch of Americans argue about violence in Canada. I wonder how many people posting in this thread have ever been there, if not for more than a day or so.

It's even funnier when people are arguing based on numbers written in an op-ed piece by the Bush White House staff. Yes, it really is that David Frum.

A much more interesting (never mind reliable) source for numbers is Statistics Canada: http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/020925/d020925b.htm.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[juanesky 0]

Funny thing is I have relatives who lives in Montreal, and has been robbed twice. Home robbery type of ordeal. (And she lives in a good area close to the University of Montreal.

I live in not such a good area, but home roberies have not been an issue.

Why I would like to hear is any rebuttal to the comment that the US is 10X the canadian population.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[skydyvr 0]

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I can't tell you all how funny it is to watch a bunch of Americans argue about violence in Canada. I wonder how many people posting in this thread have ever been there, if not for more than a day or so.

I can't tell you how funny it is to hear someone make the argument that you must have lived in a particular location to understand statistics about that location.

. . =(_8^(1)

[SabreDave 0]

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By the way, on an unrelated note, that new thumbnail photo you have started using by your name, eerily reminds me of the Nazi eagle symbol. No, I'm not trying to suggest anything by pointing this out - I'm just saying that people might take that the wrong way. See the attached side-by-side comparison.

Oh geeez...yeah just like it wow I could hardly tell the difference
Glad you like to have so many police.....so did the folks associated with the eagle YOU posted on the right!

As of tonight the Liberals will be out in Canada thankfully but John, why don't you post about something you actually know about instead of trying flounder your way into the workings of Canada?! The media disinfo you seem to believe and stats don't make your rants anymore credible!

SabreDave

[christelsabine 1]

.....

By the way, on an unrelated note, that new thumbnail photo you have started using by your name, eerily reminds me of the Nazi eagle symbol. No, I'm not trying to suggest anything by pointing this out - I'm just saying that people might take that the wrong way. See the attached side-by-side comparison.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Funny thing is I have relatives who lives in Montreal, and has been robbed twice. Home robbery type of ordeal. (And she lives in a good area close to the University of Montreal.

And your relatives experience is statistically valid how?

Toronto is the 5th largest city in north america. The overall homocide rate is down in recent years, gun crime is up. There is no denying that work needs ot be done, but we don't come close to the amount of homocides in cities of comparable size in the US.

[juanesky 0]

My response was directed to Andy. However assuming that a homocide is murder of a homosexual, I don not know about those.


Since you are comparing in raw numbers with the US, you should factor in the population of Canada-US ratio to have a valid point of view. IMO.

I tend to see how shit can happen every where. Regardless of how safe you tell me it is over there, I will be checking or try being pro-active to prevent drawing too much attention towards myself.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[JohnRich 4]

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BTW: Aren't there other countries showing an eagle as national symbol, too?

Bwahahaha.

[serious mode on] It's not just the fact that it's an eagle. It's the posture of the eagle: flat layout, head turned to viewer's right, angularity of the wings, and so on. It's the particulars of the eagle display.[serious mode off]

Is Germany a cockroach?

Hahaha, you're too funny!