When would you go to war?

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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When the evidence is pristine. Nothing less.
For example: Cuban missle crisis: We went to the UN with rock solid proof.

Neither Cuba nor the USSR had threatened to actually use the missiles against the US or to exterminate another people. We the US already had stationed nuclear Jupiter missiles in Turkey that were pointed at the USSR so arguably the USSR had justification for emplacing nuclear missile installations in Cuba. Why did we need to turn their fecal material upside down? Or, do we say this today because (1) we succeeded in causing the Cuban missiles to be removed without a conflagration and (2) historians have revised their accounts?

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See these pictures? They were taken this morning. These white things that look like missles? They are missles. Move them or we will turn your shit upside down.
Thats how you do it.

The art of concealment has improved markedly since the Cuban Missile Crisis. As a result, “proof” is much harder to come by these days.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[JohnnyD 0]

Bluto:
My point is: If you are going to go to war, to cause young American men and women to make the ultimate sacrifice, to kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents collaterally, to cause the American taxpayer to shoulder the burdon of trillions of dollars while the VPs company and the oil industry are bathing in benjamins, you better be fucking right. Not I'm pretty sure, not the intelligence suggests. I mean not even debateable right. Anything less is unacceptable.

[livendive 8]

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Bluto:
My point is: If you are going to go to war, to cause young American men and women to make the ultimate sacrifice, to kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents collaterally, to cause the American taxpayer to shoulder the burdon of trillions of dollars while the VPs company and the oil industry are bathing in benjamins, you better be fucking right. Not I'm pretty sure, not the intelligence suggests. I mean not even debateable right. Anything less is unacceptable.

What he said.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

I guess my point, and I do have them sometimes, was that in another generation or two the Iraqi occupation may be viewed as having been a necessary evil. And in all of our wars the taxpayers get pinched and VPs get enriched while brave people risk life and limb to “defend” a cause. Remember the Maine? (probable coal bunker explosion attributed to dastardly sabotage by Spain) I’m not convinced that Iraq will be perceived in the future anything at all like we look at the situation today or that any future marches to war will resemble anything materially different than Iraq, although some of them likely will be less-politic. Seldom if ever will we possess iron-clad proof, especially should we be compelled to act not against nation-states but against amorphous terror organizations and so-called rogue states which move surreptitiously to support of them in a new crusade.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[GTAVercetti 0]

If anything, whether history determines it right or wrong, I think this "war" will be percieved as poorly planned and executed.

The Assassin's Gate seems to be a good book, but I have to read more than short excerpts. The idea seems clear though: the people on the ground are doing good things and believe in helping, but the decisions at the top are less than stellar

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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I think this "war" will be percieved as poorly planned and executed.

Not in comparison with our invasion of Grenada. We've done worse before and never in our history has our military been subject to such scrutiny. Time will tell.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[j0nes 0]

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Bluto:
My point is: If you are going to go to war, to cause young American men and women to make the ultimate sacrifice,

They are all volunteers doing their jobs to protect their country. More soldiers died on the beaches of Normandy in one day than have died in Iraq. Not that either loss is more significant, people (like you) have grown less tolerant and that's a shame because sometimes, people die when fighting for what they believe in.

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to kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents collaterally,

this is a gross exaggeration. modern technology, while not perfect, has cut the amount of "collateral" damage dramatically.

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to cause the American taxpayer to shoulder the burdon of trillions of dollars

what is the cost of doing nothing? what is the cost of letting the enemy get the upper hand?

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while the VPs company and the oil industry are bathing in benjamins,

Dick Cheney has no ties to Halliburton. You don't like the oil industry, stop driving a car. It's YOUR choice.

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you better be fucking right. Not I'm pretty sure, not the intelligence suggests. I mean not even debateable right. Anything less is unacceptable.

This is a completely unrealistic and cowardly line of thinking. How certain of ANYTHING are you? When will you draw your next breath? What time will you be home? Facts and reality are often not as concrete as we'd like.

Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. He is no longer able to render aid to terrorist groups. "Oh Jones... He never did that"..... BS. Every Palestinian suicide bomber's family received a check from the Iraqi gov't.

[JohnnyD 0]

I agree. In following generations, this may morph into a great thing. A beacon of freedom and democracy in the region. However, in the mean time it is unacceptable to provide someone the opportunity to debate whether the president is a visionary or a war criminal. Its easy to hope for the best when it doesn't look like it can get any worse. I stand by my statement. In a situation with consequences as grave as this, if you have to grasp for validation you've made the wrong decision.

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

I agree with you guys that we as a nation need to do better by our military personnel. Realistically, though, all nations tend to "un-remember" the political and military lessons of past conflicts. The knowledge somehow has a shelf-life of sorts.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[wmw999 2,545]

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I think this "war" will be percieved(sic) as poorly planned and executed.

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Not in comparison with our invasion of Grenada.

"Not as bad as Grenada."

That's right up there with "we don't torture as much as Uzbekistan"

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

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In Reply To
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while the VPs company and the oil industry are bathing in benjamins,

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Dick Cheney has no ties to Halliburton

You cant really believe this in reality do you???

Its called cronyism.. he has become a MILLIONAIRE.. by working for Halliburton...he knows the people there... and they know him... PERIOD.... oh and so does GeorgieBoy....... and they believe... what is good for Halliburton... really is GOOD for the country...

[j0nes 0]

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and they believe... what is good for Halliburton... really is GOOD for the country...

so you can read people's minds now? seriously, do you have any proof that bush or cheney influenced how contracts were awarded?

[Amazon 7]

The proof is in the reality.. Halliburton has the contracts..... period... psychic abilities not needed.. the proof is in the fact there was no bid cycle... this is NOT how our government used to work....

I for one do not think Halliburton.. with the cost overruns.. and all the other stuff they are being investigated for.. is a good thing...we as the American Taxpayer.. are not being served.... but a WHOLE lot of Halliburton Cronies.. sure are making a bundle.

[JohnnyD 0]

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Bluto:
My point is: If you are going to go to war, to cause young American men and women to make the ultimate sacrifice,

They are all volunteers doing their jobs to protect their country. More soldiers died on the beaches of Normandy in one day than have died in Iraq. Not that either loss is more significant, people (like you) have grown less tolerant and that's a shame because sometimes, people die when fighting for what they believe in.

>>Yes, they are volunteers. In exchange for putting their lives on the line for you, they get a miserable paycheck (some with families live below the poverty line), months at a time away from their families, and constant relocation. They don't ask for much save one thing. If they are going to die in the line of duty, it will have been worth it. We owe them all so very much more than they are currently getting.

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to kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents collaterally,

this is a gross exaggeration. modern technology, while not perfect, has cut the amount of "collateral" damage dramatically.

>> You are just plain wrong. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html

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to cause the American taxpayer to shoulder the burdon of trillions of dollars

what is the cost of doing nothing? what is the cost of letting the enemy get the upper hand?

>> The cost of doing nothing would return over 2000 of our young men and women to their families and the same for tens of thousands of Iraqis. It would save US taxpayers trillions of dollars.

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while the VPs company and the oil industry are bathing in benjamins,

Dick Cheney has no ties to Halliburton. You don't like the oil industry, stop driving a car. It's YOUR choice.

>> Again, just plain wrong. When Dick resigned as CEO, he deferred compensation and stock options. When his term as VP is up, he will again be on the Halliburton payroll and will be holding about 18 mil. in stock options. If that isn't a tie, I don't know what is.

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you better be fucking right. Not I'm pretty sure, not the intelligence suggests. I mean not even debateable right. Anything less is unacceptable.

This is a completely unrealistic and cowardly line of thinking. How certain of ANYTHING are you? When will you draw your next breath? What time will you be home? Facts and reality are often not as concrete as we'd like.

>> Before you call someone a coward, you should be sure that they are. I am very certain of a lot of things. There were no WMDs. Over two thousand of our young men and women have died. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have died. This will cost us trillions of dollars, which we will pass on to following generations. We were wrong.

Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. He is no longer able to render aid to terrorist groups. "Oh Jones... He never did that"..... BS. Every Palestinian suicide bomber's family received a check from the Iraqi gov't.

>> News flash: He was not a threat. He was not involved in 9/11 and he had no WMDs. The UN had him in check. I know, I know. Don't let the facts cloud your judgement.

[shropshire 0]

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to kill tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocents collaterally,

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this is a gross exaggeration. modern technology, while not perfect, has cut the amount of "collateral" damage dramatically.

Jezz. someone is living in Cloud Cuckoo fucking Land
Lots of 10s of thousands of completely INOCENT people have been slaughtered in Iraq by our modern really brave over the horizon technology....

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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Lots of 10s of thousands of completely INOCENT people have been slaughtered in Iraq by our modern really brave over the horizon technology....

Many more times that number of innocent people, who disproportionately were children, got "slaughtered" in Iraq by "carefully calibrated" economic sanctions which were administered by the United Nations. That's not happening anymore there, fortunately.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[shropshire 0]

Your are absolutely right... but that's a [terrible] side issue.. it should not have lead to the second monterous murderous act.

The death of innocents is inexcusable and should be a stain on our collective consciences (for those that have one).

The oft touted argument, that the Iraq government was also murderous is an equally objectionable excuse...... We did fuck all at the time, but still manage to use it as a justification for acts carried out much later.

.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[j0nes 0]

my favorite cost saving measure was that we are no longer enforcing no-fly zones in iraq. the operational cost savings is huge.

[ColdDuck 0]

I noticed you didnt fill in any personal info in your profile. You dont live on Fantasy Island do you?

"Insurance should called In case shit happens, if shit don't happen shouldn't I get my money back?"

[Richards 0]

If I was serving in the military I would go when I was told.

As a civilian I would only voluntarily go if I felt my nation was itself threatened.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[billvon 3,076]

>But the latter doesn't apply, as we know how effective the UN is at
>enforcing its own resolutions.Tongue

The resolution in question was to make sure Saddam Hussein had no WMD's per his surrender agreement. The UN was doing the inspecting, and in a year found nothing. They said it would take a few more months to PROVE he had nothing. We invaded anyway. There were no WMD's. Score: UN 1, US 0.

[JohnnyD 0]

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I noticed you didnt fill in any personal info in your profile. You dont live on Fantasy Island do you?

Which part are you struggling with?

[billvon 3,076]

>what is the cost of doing nothing? what is the cost of letting the enemy get
> the upper hand?

What was the cost of doing nothing in Cuba? Are we all speaking Russian now? Did we lose the Cold War because we didn't invade the USSR?

A wise man wins battles by knowing when NOT to fight.

>Dick Cheney has no ties to Halliburton.

Dick Cheney has gotten $400,000 from Halliburton since he's been in office. Call it deferred compensation, call it whatever you like. He is getting checks from them regularly. To claim there is no tie there is absurd.

>This is a completely unrealistic and cowardly line of thinking. How certain of
>ANYTHING are you?

Ah, the old "no one is perfect, so we can suck really bad and it's no one's fault" argument. I hold our government to a higher standard than "we're not as bad as Saddam Hussein" and I pity the people who do not.

>Saddam Hussein is no longer in power. He is no longer able to render aid
> to terrorist groups. "Oh Jones... He never did that"..... BS. Every
>Palestinian suicide bomber's family received a check from the Iraqi gov't.

Which, no doubt, lets them use the missiles we supplied to Islamic terrorists to blow up US troops. We did exactly the same thing in the 80's. We will do it again, and right wingers will defend it when we do it again. But of course when Saddam Hussein does it it's evil and wrong; when we do it, we are just 'helping freedom fighters.' People aren't buying it any more; look at Bush's poll numbers.

[genoyamamoto 0]

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This question is directed at those who DO NOT support current U.S. policy in Iraq or Afghanistan.

At what point would you (as President) commit U.S. troops to some objective?

When I am more afraid of the consequences of not going to war than the consequences of going to war.

Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here

[ColdDuck 0]

This:

"When the evidence is pristine. Nothing less.
For example: Cuban missle crisis: We went to the UN with rock solid proof. See these pictures? They were taken this morning. These white things that look like missles? They are missles. Move them or we will turn your shit upside down.
Thats how you do it."

So, when should we turn Iran's shit upside down?

"Insurance should called In case shit happens, if shit don't happen shouldn't I get my money back?"