TheAnvil 0 #101 January 7, 2006 There are 700 kids in Florida who might disagree with your assertion that voucher programs don't work. All from districts in which the public schools have failed by the government's own admission. Now I'm really off to the beach. My legs need to stretch a bit. Then to Zhills. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #102 January 7, 2006 I think that to say the schools "fail to perform" would be difficult to demonstrate in a way that is really meaningful and applicable here. For whom do they fail to perform? Standardized test scores don't break that down. In school districts where there is a lot of poverty and a high percentage of children who are the "problem kids," then you're gonna get poor scores because those kids bring down the mean. But I'd bet the evidence is lacking that the schools "fail to perform" for the kids whose parents would use vouchers to send them to private schools....because that group of kids will probably do well wherever they go to school for the simple reason that their parents are interested and involved. As has already been stated, if parents want something different for their kids, they may need to dig a little deeper into their own pockets to provide the means. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,147 #103 January 7, 2006 QuoteThe government is FAILING to live up to its responsibilities. Vouchers allow the government to mitigate that failing. They also simultaneously reduce class size in the failing schools for the children whose parents choose not to avail themselves of the vouchers. There is no evidence in support of your claim in favor of vouchers. Vouchers are a way for the government to pass the buck , and they are welfare for the wealthy.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #104 January 7, 2006 Incorrect. Had their been no evidence of the schools failing, then the kids would not have qualified for the vouchers. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #105 January 7, 2006 QuoteIncorrect. Had their been no evidence of the schools failing, then the kids would not have qualified for the vouchers. Is that just your assumption based on (heh) faith, or do you know what the evidence is? linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #106 January 7, 2006 No, that is based on the idea of the program. students that go to a school that earned a failing grade from the state are eligible for vouchers.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #107 January 7, 2006 QuoteNo, that is based on the idea of the program. students that go to a school that earned a failing grade from the state are eligible for vouchers. Her question might be more targeted toward the basis of a school receiving a failing grade. Which then brings us to the subject of the FCAT. Is school about learning or about learning to pass a test? rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #108 January 7, 2006 QuoteNo, that is based on the idea of the program. students that go to a school that earned a failing grade from the state are eligible for vouchers. So the assumption is that if a student earns a failing grade that the school failed??? I think the child failed. How does failure on the child's fault speak to the ability of the school to provide an education???? In my mind, that's even LESS of a reason to give kids vouchers than standardized test scores and whatnot (as I had assumed). Now....if there were some reliable way to show that the child's failure was because of the school in some way (and not due to poor preparation on the child's part) and it were demonstrable that the child could not succeed in the public school system because of reasons intrinsic to the school itself, then there'd be some justification for vouchers. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #109 January 7, 2006 QuoteIs school about learning or about learning to pass a test? rl The second. No question about it. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #110 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteNo, that is based on the idea of the program. students that go to a school that earned a failing grade from the state are eligible for vouchers. So the assumption is that if a student earns a failing grade that the school failed??? I think the child failed. How does failure on the child's fault speak to the ability of the school to provide an education???? No. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #111 January 7, 2006 QuoteI've a lot to say with two posts in the thread - this one makes three. Hmm...perhaps your definition of 'a lot' differs from my own. Quote You post here on many subjects. The consistent theme of your posts is that republicans are always correct and democrats are always bad. Both parties suck in their own way. You excoriate "liberals" without comprehending that the progressive thinking has improved society in ways beyond measure. The forty hour work week, social security, OSHA, child labor laws, civil and voting rights for all races, allowing inter-racial marriage, etc, etc. The list is so long that it isn't possible to list everything. None of these things came about through conservative politics. They never would have happened. You consistently defend ShrubCo and the republicans and trash "liberals". ShrubCo has borrowed more money than the previous 42 administrations combined. Fiscal responsibility is supposed to be a bedrock republican principal. ShrubCo has engaged the USA in a premeditated war of aggression. This was accomplished by lies and deception. Our so-called moral superiority in the world has been completely destroyed by this administration. In 5 years they have made the world immensely less safe for all. Yet you continue to defend them and their kind. You whip yourself into a righteous fury over the Clinton administration's perceived failings, but don't hold ShrubCo to the same standards. Not even close. The republican "Contract on America" has really screwed up the USA. I hope that we can recover. I have my doubts. Quote School vouchers should be allowed in FL because the government has taken on the burden of providing a uniform education for all children in Florida. It says that right in the FL constitution, which you would know had you read it. When public schools FAIL to perform, that constitutional requirement is not being met, i.e. the government is FAILING to live up to its responsibilities. Vouchers allow the government to mitigate that failing. They also simultaneously reduce class size in the failing schools for the children whose parents choose not to avail themselves of the vouchers. Quote The government is not a monolithic entity. Of the people, by the people, and for the people. Sound familiar? If the systems and institutions are broken, they need to be fixed. This takes organized and coordinated effort on the part of involved and committed citizens. What do you do to improve "failing" schools? Other than support vouchers... Quote If you would like a voucher program to hire a security firm then call you congressman and ask him to introduce a bill to fund such a program. I don't think one necessary as the onus for home and personal security ultimately falls upon the homeowner or tenant, but think however you like. Quote I don't think school vouchers necessary as the onus for education ultimately falls upon the parent and student to use the resources provided. I am not in favor of requiring every kid to go to public school. I believe that those that want private schooling for their kids should pay for it themselves. Here's that pesky personal responsibility thing, again. A republican value, isn't it? Do you agree or disagree? A simple yes or no will suffice. School vouchers do nothing to solve the underlying issues related to "failing" schools. They are a government subsidy (tax break) that allows people to purchase private services that they should pay for themselves. Just like private security services. If I want them I am free to pay for them. Quote FYI, I tutor calculus and physics, not that it's germane to the argument at hand. Do you? If not, perhaps you should. I had a fantastic education in college by the way, though my public school education wasn't all that hot. I transferred from a private to a public school in Appalachia quite early on in my development and will never forget the experience. I know how bad public schools compare to private ones from my own experience. The voucher program is needed and was working for 700 kids. Quote I work for a public school district. I deal with the IT side of things. I do teach computer skills to student aides when I can. Mostly I make sure that the systems used by management work well and that the computer labs used by the students run well. I make a special effort to ensure that the english as a second language programs have good equipment and up to date software. My grandparents were immigrants who did not know english. It means a lot to me. I spent more than 20 years in private industry before I started working for the district. In other words I have actually been in the real world. I now am directly engaged in improving a public school district to the best of my ability. What are you doing to help? It is unfortunate that your parents did not work harder to improve the schools you were in. It is sad that they did not feel that the sacrifices required to keep you in private schools were worth it. You are a living example that blaming failing public schools for later failure is not legitimate. It is especially unfortunate that the "fantastic" college education you received appears to have lacked the portion related to critical thinking skills and comprehension of the big picture. Quote I didn't read how happy you were that these 700 kids will be going from a good school to a failing one. Any thoughts on that? You also failed to find flaw with my argument against the rulings of the FL courts - SC on uniform public education and the lower court on religioun and public $$. May I assume that you can find no flaw and are just ranting against the voucher concept in general? Quote You assume that the 700 kids affected came from "failing" public schools and will return to same. You further assume that the private schools they were enrolled in were providing a superior education to the public schools. These are very broad assumptions. What facts do you base these assumptions on? How do you know that a significant portion of these people aren't religious nut jobs that wanted their kids in religious schools that may have questionable academic standards? Oh, yeah, the party line, I forgot. Facts are meaningless. The party is always right. As you tutor calculus and physics I'll assume that you have no formal legal education and are not a member of the bar in any state. If my assumption is correct then you are totally unqualified to second-guess the decisions of the courts in Florida. Your argument is meaningless if you have no training or experience in the legal profession. The legal professionals tasked with interpreting the law have done so. If my assumptions regarding your legal education and experience are incorrect, let us know. In my opinion, goverment vouchers for private services are wrong, period. It matters not to me if they are for education, personal security, or whatever else is the issue of the moment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #112 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteIs school about learning or about learning to pass a test? rl The second. No question about it. Walt For me, it wasn't about passing a test. I never had to do anything to pass a test, and the things I learned were never on the test anyway. Except for 5th grade when my teacher was a Vietnam era "sanctioned draft dodger," I had good teachers who encouraged a love of learning. School was my refuge. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #113 January 7, 2006 QuoteNo. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though. That a certain percentage of the students pass the FCAT. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_aplus.htm rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #114 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteNo, that is based on the idea of the program. students that go to a school that earned a failing grade from the state are eligible for vouchers. So the assumption is that if a student earns a failing grade that the school failed??? I think the child failed. How does failure on the child's fault speak to the ability of the school to provide an education???? No. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though. Oh my....I'm so confused . Then that's back to what I was thinking and saying at first. I should've stopped there. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites waltappel 1 #115 January 7, 2006 I think I would have turned out quite differently had I gone to a high school school where sanity and education were the norm. There were two teachers who I will always love for the caring they showed me, but they were truly exceptional. I can't really blame any of the teachers for the craziness in the school. Mostly it was the court system and the parents. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #116 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteNo. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though. That a certain percentage of the students pass the FCAT. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_aplus.htm rl Yeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. I am glad you are here. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #117 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteYeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. Without me. QuoteI am glad you are here. Instead of there? If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,147 #118 January 7, 2006 QuoteIncorrect. Had their been no evidence of the schools failing, then the kids would not have qualified for the vouchers. Where is your evidence that vouchers fix the problem, rather than just moving it from place to place?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #119 January 7, 2006 And, unfortunately, schools grades are based on performance of students rather than on the education that a school provides. You can lead a horse to water.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #120 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. Without me. QuoteI am glad you are here. Instead of there? I would have invited you, but I think you would have gotten here a little past closing time. So if ya can't be HERE, at least you can be here. Or something that makes sense. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #121 January 8, 2006 Ahhh...always good to get a chuckle after a day of jumping spoiled by one of my tenants. Thank you so much FunJumper. I believe I haven't chuckled this hard at a post here in SC since you neither knew who the Attorney General of the U.S. was nor that Mr. Berger was a convicted criminal. If you'd take the link and go a bit further up the thread, you'd find me slamming GWB and the Republican Congress. Not an uncommon thing if you'd actually read a few of my posts here in the SC. I am glad you're such a fan though - always nice to have a fan club, even if I don't agree politically with its membership. Since you've shown yourself such an Anvil-fan, I'll address a few of the more humorous points you've brought up. Not going to respond to your assertion that my parents are lazy and didn't care or do anything about my public school (the exact opposite is true, in fact) nor to your assertion that my college education didn't arm me with critical thinking skills. Might be tempted at a personal attack and I wouldn't want to attack one of my biggest fans - at least not here in the forums. A respect for the rules, you see. Don't worry about saying bad things about myself and my parentage - attacking the Anvil is OK and I forgive you like a good Catholic that I am...er...actually I'm a horrid Catholic, but I forgive you anyway. Nobody really cares - me included. I'd be a bit more careful about saying the same thing about other DZ.com'ers though. You're a ton of fun and I hope you keep posting here. Enough cheery banter. Let us anon to some stuff about vouchers in FL... You start out by make a lot of incorrect assertions about conservatives, the war in Iraq, and how screwed up the U.S. is thanks to GWB. You end up by stating that since I'm not a lawyer - you're correct, I'm not - that my opinion doesn't count. You're not a political scientist, so can you please tell us how you're qualified to state such things about the state of the US, our foreign relations, and the safety of the world? After all, if my opinion on legal rulings has no merit because I'm not a lawyer, then neither do yours on politics, foreign relations, etc. because you are an IT fellow and not a political scientist. I make the preceding assertion for mere pedagogical - and humorous - reasons. I actually DO think your opinions count on such things - as do mine on the dumbass ruling by the FL Supreme Court in this case. Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Or somebody else, but I always give my fan club members' opinions first look. Aren't you glad you're a member? As an added member benefit, I suggest you take a look at the Rep/Dem breakdown in the votes for the Voting Rights Act and National Civil Rights Act. Wouldn't want my fans making false statements. I know this might surprise you, but the governmet of the people of Florida, consisting of elected officials elected by the people of Florida, enacted legislation for the people of Florida that entitled parents of students in schools failing to meet academic standards to vouchers to pay for the education of their child elsewhere at a private school of the parent's choosing. That of, by, and for the people thing. Now you, who are neither a FL resident, educator, lawyer, nor elected official in th state of FL, disagree with those legislators - and the GOV (a resident of Florida elected by the people of Florida to act as Governor for the people of Florida), many of whom are themselves lawyers. Remember your 'Anvil is not a lawyer' point? Anyhoo, those legislators and the Governor sure don't agree with the FL Supreme Court. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure if they can seek certiorari with the SCOTUS on such a thing, but hopefully they'll ammend the constitution so it would be unneccessary. In summary, the majority of legislators in FL, the Governor of FL, and I, TheAnvil, disagree with you about vouchers being necessary or useful. I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. Not everybody is as smart as I am and I'm really sure that not everybody has parents like I had - involved as much as possible in my education when not working two jobs and farming to boot; not very lazy or unengaged, as you assert). Now, if you'd care to do a forum search, the great BillVon and I had a banter about how we would improve education overall a year or so ago that was pretty darned good. He and I agreed on a lot of things as I recall. Look there if you're interested - as a fan of mine you should be. I think I'll close with that. Thanks for being a fan, though I wish you'd read a bit more of my posts so you know a bit more about my line of thinking. Don't worry about the parentage and critical thing either. Even if you weren't a fan I'd forgive you. And don't worry, I'll give you an autograph too if we ever meet. No tequila required. Speaking of tequila...rehmwa...it's TEQUILA TIME HERE!!!! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 8, 2006 I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. That's interesting. I grew up in a small school district in rural Arkansas. Can't get much poorer than that. I'm living proof that kids can (be stuck??) grow up in a poor public school and succeed. Most of my friends are proof of that too... I bet, percentage wise, we have more people doing well than a lot of wealthier districts. Of course too many people leave. I came back. My child is thriving in the public schools in this little town. In fact, he's doing better than he was in the private school that he left in order to come here. Maybe we're lucky???? I don't know. I'm sure that our schools would be considered a "failure" by the state because there is a large population that isn't going to do well no matter where they go to school. The kids who ARE going to do well (no matter where they are) thrive here too....despite probably a "failing grade." If those kids left the school district to attend private schools at the taxpayers' expense, the public schools would be sunk. The teachers would leave along with the good students, and we'd be left with an awful mess.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinfarmer 0 #123 January 8, 2006 The reason I think schools need to be funded by an income tax is so people like myself that own a large amount of real estate but have a rather modest income don't have to bare the burden while people with a high income that own just a small home or rent pay hardly any. This also goes for older people who now are on a fixed income and have a hard time staying in there home because of the school tax. An income tax would make these situations much more fare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #124 January 8, 2006 Hi Lindsey! Whoa, that's interesting! You and I both attended poor schools with different experiences. I'm glad your little one is doing well. I think we are lucky in many ways. You are 100% right in stating that some people will do well no matter where they go and others will not perform anywhere. I think that the group in between the two I just mentioned is the group that would most benefit from an improved school system. I think they're the group that would perform to the level of their peers and the expectations of their teachers. Put those kids - and I believe the majority of children to fall within that category - into a more demanding academic standing and they would probably reap the greatest benefit. I see your point about the 'perform anywhere' kids leaving, but I'm not sure that the other kids are completely beyond hope. Nor am I conviced that the teachers would leave as well. Plausible in the extreme, I'm sure, but I don't think it would be commonplace and there are a lot of things plausible in the extreme. Very interesting. Hope you have a good Sunday - and everyone else too, of course. I'm going to drink more tequila here in a bit. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #125 January 8, 2006 Quote Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. 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RhondaLea 4 #112 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteIs school about learning or about learning to pass a test? rl The second. No question about it. Walt For me, it wasn't about passing a test. I never had to do anything to pass a test, and the things I learned were never on the test anyway. Except for 5th grade when my teacher was a Vietnam era "sanctioned draft dodger," I had good teachers who encouraged a love of learning. School was my refuge. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #113 January 7, 2006 QuoteNo. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though. That a certain percentage of the students pass the FCAT. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_aplus.htm rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #114 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteNo, that is based on the idea of the program. students that go to a school that earned a failing grade from the state are eligible for vouchers. So the assumption is that if a student earns a failing grade that the school failed??? I think the child failed. How does failure on the child's fault speak to the ability of the school to provide an education???? No. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though. Oh my....I'm so confused . Then that's back to what I was thinking and saying at first. I should've stopped there. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #115 January 7, 2006 I think I would have turned out quite differently had I gone to a high school school where sanity and education were the norm. There were two teachers who I will always love for the caring they showed me, but they were truly exceptional. I can't really blame any of the teachers for the craziness in the school. Mostly it was the court system and the parents. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #116 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteNo. The SCHOOL recieves a failing grade from the state. I honestly have no idea WHAT the criteria for the grade that is given though. That a certain percentage of the students pass the FCAT. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_aplus.htm rl Yeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. I am glad you are here. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #117 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteYeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. Without me. QuoteI am glad you are here. Instead of there? If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,147 #118 January 7, 2006 QuoteIncorrect. Had their been no evidence of the schools failing, then the kids would not have qualified for the vouchers. Where is your evidence that vouchers fix the problem, rather than just moving it from place to place?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #119 January 7, 2006 And, unfortunately, schools grades are based on performance of students rather than on the education that a school provides. You can lead a horse to water.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GTAVercetti 0 #120 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. Without me. QuoteI am glad you are here. Instead of there? I would have invited you, but I think you would have gotten here a little past closing time. So if ya can't be HERE, at least you can be here. Or something that makes sense. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #121 January 8, 2006 Ahhh...always good to get a chuckle after a day of jumping spoiled by one of my tenants. Thank you so much FunJumper. I believe I haven't chuckled this hard at a post here in SC since you neither knew who the Attorney General of the U.S. was nor that Mr. Berger was a convicted criminal. If you'd take the link and go a bit further up the thread, you'd find me slamming GWB and the Republican Congress. Not an uncommon thing if you'd actually read a few of my posts here in the SC. I am glad you're such a fan though - always nice to have a fan club, even if I don't agree politically with its membership. Since you've shown yourself such an Anvil-fan, I'll address a few of the more humorous points you've brought up. Not going to respond to your assertion that my parents are lazy and didn't care or do anything about my public school (the exact opposite is true, in fact) nor to your assertion that my college education didn't arm me with critical thinking skills. Might be tempted at a personal attack and I wouldn't want to attack one of my biggest fans - at least not here in the forums. A respect for the rules, you see. Don't worry about saying bad things about myself and my parentage - attacking the Anvil is OK and I forgive you like a good Catholic that I am...er...actually I'm a horrid Catholic, but I forgive you anyway. Nobody really cares - me included. I'd be a bit more careful about saying the same thing about other DZ.com'ers though. You're a ton of fun and I hope you keep posting here. Enough cheery banter. Let us anon to some stuff about vouchers in FL... You start out by make a lot of incorrect assertions about conservatives, the war in Iraq, and how screwed up the U.S. is thanks to GWB. You end up by stating that since I'm not a lawyer - you're correct, I'm not - that my opinion doesn't count. You're not a political scientist, so can you please tell us how you're qualified to state such things about the state of the US, our foreign relations, and the safety of the world? After all, if my opinion on legal rulings has no merit because I'm not a lawyer, then neither do yours on politics, foreign relations, etc. because you are an IT fellow and not a political scientist. I make the preceding assertion for mere pedagogical - and humorous - reasons. I actually DO think your opinions count on such things - as do mine on the dumbass ruling by the FL Supreme Court in this case. Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Or somebody else, but I always give my fan club members' opinions first look. Aren't you glad you're a member? As an added member benefit, I suggest you take a look at the Rep/Dem breakdown in the votes for the Voting Rights Act and National Civil Rights Act. Wouldn't want my fans making false statements. I know this might surprise you, but the governmet of the people of Florida, consisting of elected officials elected by the people of Florida, enacted legislation for the people of Florida that entitled parents of students in schools failing to meet academic standards to vouchers to pay for the education of their child elsewhere at a private school of the parent's choosing. That of, by, and for the people thing. Now you, who are neither a FL resident, educator, lawyer, nor elected official in th state of FL, disagree with those legislators - and the GOV (a resident of Florida elected by the people of Florida to act as Governor for the people of Florida), many of whom are themselves lawyers. Remember your 'Anvil is not a lawyer' point? Anyhoo, those legislators and the Governor sure don't agree with the FL Supreme Court. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure if they can seek certiorari with the SCOTUS on such a thing, but hopefully they'll ammend the constitution so it would be unneccessary. In summary, the majority of legislators in FL, the Governor of FL, and I, TheAnvil, disagree with you about vouchers being necessary or useful. I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. Not everybody is as smart as I am and I'm really sure that not everybody has parents like I had - involved as much as possible in my education when not working two jobs and farming to boot; not very lazy or unengaged, as you assert). Now, if you'd care to do a forum search, the great BillVon and I had a banter about how we would improve education overall a year or so ago that was pretty darned good. He and I agreed on a lot of things as I recall. Look there if you're interested - as a fan of mine you should be. I think I'll close with that. Thanks for being a fan, though I wish you'd read a bit more of my posts so you know a bit more about my line of thinking. Don't worry about the parentage and critical thing either. Even if you weren't a fan I'd forgive you. And don't worry, I'll give you an autograph too if we ever meet. No tequila required. Speaking of tequila...rehmwa...it's TEQUILA TIME HERE!!!! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 8, 2006 I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. That's interesting. I grew up in a small school district in rural Arkansas. Can't get much poorer than that. I'm living proof that kids can (be stuck??) grow up in a poor public school and succeed. Most of my friends are proof of that too... I bet, percentage wise, we have more people doing well than a lot of wealthier districts. Of course too many people leave. I came back. My child is thriving in the public schools in this little town. In fact, he's doing better than he was in the private school that he left in order to come here. Maybe we're lucky???? I don't know. I'm sure that our schools would be considered a "failure" by the state because there is a large population that isn't going to do well no matter where they go to school. The kids who ARE going to do well (no matter where they are) thrive here too....despite probably a "failing grade." If those kids left the school district to attend private schools at the taxpayers' expense, the public schools would be sunk. The teachers would leave along with the good students, and we'd be left with an awful mess.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinfarmer 0 #123 January 8, 2006 The reason I think schools need to be funded by an income tax is so people like myself that own a large amount of real estate but have a rather modest income don't have to bare the burden while people with a high income that own just a small home or rent pay hardly any. This also goes for older people who now are on a fixed income and have a hard time staying in there home because of the school tax. An income tax would make these situations much more fare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #124 January 8, 2006 Hi Lindsey! Whoa, that's interesting! You and I both attended poor schools with different experiences. I'm glad your little one is doing well. I think we are lucky in many ways. You are 100% right in stating that some people will do well no matter where they go and others will not perform anywhere. I think that the group in between the two I just mentioned is the group that would most benefit from an improved school system. I think they're the group that would perform to the level of their peers and the expectations of their teachers. Put those kids - and I believe the majority of children to fall within that category - into a more demanding academic standing and they would probably reap the greatest benefit. I see your point about the 'perform anywhere' kids leaving, but I'm not sure that the other kids are completely beyond hope. Nor am I conviced that the teachers would leave as well. Plausible in the extreme, I'm sure, but I don't think it would be commonplace and there are a lot of things plausible in the extreme. Very interesting. Hope you have a good Sunday - and everyone else too, of course. I'm going to drink more tequila here in a bit. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #125 January 8, 2006 Quote Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 5 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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kallend 2,147 #118 January 7, 2006 QuoteIncorrect. Had their been no evidence of the schools failing, then the kids would not have qualified for the vouchers. Where is your evidence that vouchers fix the problem, rather than just moving it from place to place?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #119 January 7, 2006 And, unfortunately, schools grades are based on performance of students rather than on the education that a school provides. You can lead a horse to water.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #120 January 7, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteYeah, I could have read better or looked that up....just a testament to how fun last night was I guess. Without me. QuoteI am glad you are here. Instead of there? I would have invited you, but I think you would have gotten here a little past closing time. So if ya can't be HERE, at least you can be here. Or something that makes sense. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #121 January 8, 2006 Ahhh...always good to get a chuckle after a day of jumping spoiled by one of my tenants. Thank you so much FunJumper. I believe I haven't chuckled this hard at a post here in SC since you neither knew who the Attorney General of the U.S. was nor that Mr. Berger was a convicted criminal. If you'd take the link and go a bit further up the thread, you'd find me slamming GWB and the Republican Congress. Not an uncommon thing if you'd actually read a few of my posts here in the SC. I am glad you're such a fan though - always nice to have a fan club, even if I don't agree politically with its membership. Since you've shown yourself such an Anvil-fan, I'll address a few of the more humorous points you've brought up. Not going to respond to your assertion that my parents are lazy and didn't care or do anything about my public school (the exact opposite is true, in fact) nor to your assertion that my college education didn't arm me with critical thinking skills. Might be tempted at a personal attack and I wouldn't want to attack one of my biggest fans - at least not here in the forums. A respect for the rules, you see. Don't worry about saying bad things about myself and my parentage - attacking the Anvil is OK and I forgive you like a good Catholic that I am...er...actually I'm a horrid Catholic, but I forgive you anyway. Nobody really cares - me included. I'd be a bit more careful about saying the same thing about other DZ.com'ers though. You're a ton of fun and I hope you keep posting here. Enough cheery banter. Let us anon to some stuff about vouchers in FL... You start out by make a lot of incorrect assertions about conservatives, the war in Iraq, and how screwed up the U.S. is thanks to GWB. You end up by stating that since I'm not a lawyer - you're correct, I'm not - that my opinion doesn't count. You're not a political scientist, so can you please tell us how you're qualified to state such things about the state of the US, our foreign relations, and the safety of the world? After all, if my opinion on legal rulings has no merit because I'm not a lawyer, then neither do yours on politics, foreign relations, etc. because you are an IT fellow and not a political scientist. I make the preceding assertion for mere pedagogical - and humorous - reasons. I actually DO think your opinions count on such things - as do mine on the dumbass ruling by the FL Supreme Court in this case. Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Or somebody else, but I always give my fan club members' opinions first look. Aren't you glad you're a member? As an added member benefit, I suggest you take a look at the Rep/Dem breakdown in the votes for the Voting Rights Act and National Civil Rights Act. Wouldn't want my fans making false statements. I know this might surprise you, but the governmet of the people of Florida, consisting of elected officials elected by the people of Florida, enacted legislation for the people of Florida that entitled parents of students in schools failing to meet academic standards to vouchers to pay for the education of their child elsewhere at a private school of the parent's choosing. That of, by, and for the people thing. Now you, who are neither a FL resident, educator, lawyer, nor elected official in th state of FL, disagree with those legislators - and the GOV (a resident of Florida elected by the people of Florida to act as Governor for the people of Florida), many of whom are themselves lawyers. Remember your 'Anvil is not a lawyer' point? Anyhoo, those legislators and the Governor sure don't agree with the FL Supreme Court. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure if they can seek certiorari with the SCOTUS on such a thing, but hopefully they'll ammend the constitution so it would be unneccessary. In summary, the majority of legislators in FL, the Governor of FL, and I, TheAnvil, disagree with you about vouchers being necessary or useful. I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. Not everybody is as smart as I am and I'm really sure that not everybody has parents like I had - involved as much as possible in my education when not working two jobs and farming to boot; not very lazy or unengaged, as you assert). Now, if you'd care to do a forum search, the great BillVon and I had a banter about how we would improve education overall a year or so ago that was pretty darned good. He and I agreed on a lot of things as I recall. Look there if you're interested - as a fan of mine you should be. I think I'll close with that. Thanks for being a fan, though I wish you'd read a bit more of my posts so you know a bit more about my line of thinking. Don't worry about the parentage and critical thing either. Even if you weren't a fan I'd forgive you. And don't worry, I'll give you an autograph too if we ever meet. No tequila required. Speaking of tequila...rehmwa...it's TEQUILA TIME HERE!!!! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #122 January 8, 2006 I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. That's interesting. I grew up in a small school district in rural Arkansas. Can't get much poorer than that. I'm living proof that kids can (be stuck??) grow up in a poor public school and succeed. Most of my friends are proof of that too... I bet, percentage wise, we have more people doing well than a lot of wealthier districts. Of course too many people leave. I came back. My child is thriving in the public schools in this little town. In fact, he's doing better than he was in the private school that he left in order to come here. Maybe we're lucky???? I don't know. I'm sure that our schools would be considered a "failure" by the state because there is a large population that isn't going to do well no matter where they go to school. The kids who ARE going to do well (no matter where they are) thrive here too....despite probably a "failing grade." If those kids left the school district to attend private schools at the taxpayers' expense, the public schools would be sunk. The teachers would leave along with the good students, and we'd be left with an awful mess.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jumpinfarmer 0 #123 January 8, 2006 The reason I think schools need to be funded by an income tax is so people like myself that own a large amount of real estate but have a rather modest income don't have to bare the burden while people with a high income that own just a small home or rent pay hardly any. This also goes for older people who now are on a fixed income and have a hard time staying in there home because of the school tax. An income tax would make these situations much more fare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #124 January 8, 2006 Hi Lindsey! Whoa, that's interesting! You and I both attended poor schools with different experiences. I'm glad your little one is doing well. I think we are lucky in many ways. You are 100% right in stating that some people will do well no matter where they go and others will not perform anywhere. I think that the group in between the two I just mentioned is the group that would most benefit from an improved school system. I think they're the group that would perform to the level of their peers and the expectations of their teachers. Put those kids - and I believe the majority of children to fall within that category - into a more demanding academic standing and they would probably reap the greatest benefit. I see your point about the 'perform anywhere' kids leaving, but I'm not sure that the other kids are completely beyond hope. Nor am I conviced that the teachers would leave as well. Plausible in the extreme, I'm sure, but I don't think it would be commonplace and there are a lot of things plausible in the extreme. Very interesting. Hope you have a good Sunday - and everyone else too, of course. I'm going to drink more tequila here in a bit. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #125 January 8, 2006 Quote Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 5 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
TheAnvil 0 #121 January 8, 2006 Ahhh...always good to get a chuckle after a day of jumping spoiled by one of my tenants. Thank you so much FunJumper. I believe I haven't chuckled this hard at a post here in SC since you neither knew who the Attorney General of the U.S. was nor that Mr. Berger was a convicted criminal. If you'd take the link and go a bit further up the thread, you'd find me slamming GWB and the Republican Congress. Not an uncommon thing if you'd actually read a few of my posts here in the SC. I am glad you're such a fan though - always nice to have a fan club, even if I don't agree politically with its membership. Since you've shown yourself such an Anvil-fan, I'll address a few of the more humorous points you've brought up. Not going to respond to your assertion that my parents are lazy and didn't care or do anything about my public school (the exact opposite is true, in fact) nor to your assertion that my college education didn't arm me with critical thinking skills. Might be tempted at a personal attack and I wouldn't want to attack one of my biggest fans - at least not here in the forums. A respect for the rules, you see. Don't worry about saying bad things about myself and my parentage - attacking the Anvil is OK and I forgive you like a good Catholic that I am...er...actually I'm a horrid Catholic, but I forgive you anyway. Nobody really cares - me included. I'd be a bit more careful about saying the same thing about other DZ.com'ers though. You're a ton of fun and I hope you keep posting here. Enough cheery banter. Let us anon to some stuff about vouchers in FL... You start out by make a lot of incorrect assertions about conservatives, the war in Iraq, and how screwed up the U.S. is thanks to GWB. You end up by stating that since I'm not a lawyer - you're correct, I'm not - that my opinion doesn't count. You're not a political scientist, so can you please tell us how you're qualified to state such things about the state of the US, our foreign relations, and the safety of the world? After all, if my opinion on legal rulings has no merit because I'm not a lawyer, then neither do yours on politics, foreign relations, etc. because you are an IT fellow and not a political scientist. I make the preceding assertion for mere pedagogical - and humorous - reasons. I actually DO think your opinions count on such things - as do mine on the dumbass ruling by the FL Supreme Court in this case. Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Or somebody else, but I always give my fan club members' opinions first look. Aren't you glad you're a member? As an added member benefit, I suggest you take a look at the Rep/Dem breakdown in the votes for the Voting Rights Act and National Civil Rights Act. Wouldn't want my fans making false statements. I know this might surprise you, but the governmet of the people of Florida, consisting of elected officials elected by the people of Florida, enacted legislation for the people of Florida that entitled parents of students in schools failing to meet academic standards to vouchers to pay for the education of their child elsewhere at a private school of the parent's choosing. That of, by, and for the people thing. Now you, who are neither a FL resident, educator, lawyer, nor elected official in th state of FL, disagree with those legislators - and the GOV (a resident of Florida elected by the people of Florida to act as Governor for the people of Florida), many of whom are themselves lawyers. Remember your 'Anvil is not a lawyer' point? Anyhoo, those legislators and the Governor sure don't agree with the FL Supreme Court. Not being a lawyer, I'm not sure if they can seek certiorari with the SCOTUS on such a thing, but hopefully they'll ammend the constitution so it would be unneccessary. In summary, the majority of legislators in FL, the Governor of FL, and I, TheAnvil, disagree with you about vouchers being necessary or useful. I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. Not everybody is as smart as I am and I'm really sure that not everybody has parents like I had - involved as much as possible in my education when not working two jobs and farming to boot; not very lazy or unengaged, as you assert). Now, if you'd care to do a forum search, the great BillVon and I had a banter about how we would improve education overall a year or so ago that was pretty darned good. He and I agreed on a lot of things as I recall. Look there if you're interested - as a fan of mine you should be. I think I'll close with that. Thanks for being a fan, though I wish you'd read a bit more of my posts so you know a bit more about my line of thinking. Don't worry about the parentage and critical thing either. Even if you weren't a fan I'd forgive you. And don't worry, I'll give you an autograph too if we ever meet. No tequila required. Speaking of tequila...rehmwa...it's TEQUILA TIME HERE!!!! Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #122 January 8, 2006 I am living proof that kids can be stuck in a poor public school and succeed. The rest of my high school chums are proof that poor schools can really harm their students. That's interesting. I grew up in a small school district in rural Arkansas. Can't get much poorer than that. I'm living proof that kids can (be stuck??) grow up in a poor public school and succeed. Most of my friends are proof of that too... I bet, percentage wise, we have more people doing well than a lot of wealthier districts. Of course too many people leave. I came back. My child is thriving in the public schools in this little town. In fact, he's doing better than he was in the private school that he left in order to come here. Maybe we're lucky???? I don't know. I'm sure that our schools would be considered a "failure" by the state because there is a large population that isn't going to do well no matter where they go to school. The kids who ARE going to do well (no matter where they are) thrive here too....despite probably a "failing grade." If those kids left the school district to attend private schools at the taxpayers' expense, the public schools would be sunk. The teachers would leave along with the good students, and we'd be left with an awful mess.... linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpinfarmer 0 #123 January 8, 2006 The reason I think schools need to be funded by an income tax is so people like myself that own a large amount of real estate but have a rather modest income don't have to bare the burden while people with a high income that own just a small home or rent pay hardly any. This also goes for older people who now are on a fixed income and have a hard time staying in there home because of the school tax. An income tax would make these situations much more fare. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #124 January 8, 2006 Hi Lindsey! Whoa, that's interesting! You and I both attended poor schools with different experiences. I'm glad your little one is doing well. I think we are lucky in many ways. You are 100% right in stating that some people will do well no matter where they go and others will not perform anywhere. I think that the group in between the two I just mentioned is the group that would most benefit from an improved school system. I think they're the group that would perform to the level of their peers and the expectations of their teachers. Put those kids - and I believe the majority of children to fall within that category - into a more demanding academic standing and they would probably reap the greatest benefit. I see your point about the 'perform anywhere' kids leaving, but I'm not sure that the other kids are completely beyond hope. Nor am I conviced that the teachers would leave as well. Plausible in the extreme, I'm sure, but I don't think it would be commonplace and there are a lot of things plausible in the extreme. Very interesting. Hope you have a good Sunday - and everyone else too, of course. I'm going to drink more tequila here in a bit. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #125 January 8, 2006 Quote Since you didn't seem to find flaw with my argument presented in my response to my dear sweet Nightingale (a very astute student of the law and beautiful woman to boot, inside and out), I'll assume I'm correct until you show me otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
