dan_iv 0
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Consider the case where someone who has kids they can't afford and expects society to pay for their irresponsibility. In that case, paying school taxes to support their kids' education is put in the larger context of a parasitic lifestyle.
The problem with this idea is that if we remove the tax that is used to fund public school, it will not stop idiots from having children. Instead, they will keep going and their children will have NO chance to improve their lives and will then become idiots themselves. And the saga continues.
Furthermore, if there was no public school, I am not even sure MY parents could have afforded to send me to school. My parents are not rich. They handle money well but I don't think they could have afforded to pay for 17 years of school (I included college too). Particularly at the age when people usually have children.
I too, do not plan on having children. But I like innovation, art, creativity, new ideas. If our children do not receive a basic education, the alot of what I like will lessen. Basic education may not give them everything, but it gives many drive to be better. I know it did for me.
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
QuoteI'm trying to figure out if this thread is drifting in the "I hate welfare mothers" direction.
I think spending money on welfare and education is a better use of tax dollars than the $2 million per cruise missle or buying 370 F22 Raptor's thru FY 2009 at a cost of $170 million per plane.
I'm not going to start wailing on welfare mothers because each case is different. I will, however, gladly wail on people who take advantage of that system simply because they can, or people who live ridiculous lifestyles knowing that they have welfare to fall back on.
Walt
Honestly, I think fewer people *should* go to school.
We have a system where people who have absolutely no desire to be in school are somewhat forced to be there and many of them disrupt the educations of those who *do* want to be there.
I did not want to go to high school. I resented being forced to go. I considered it to be a hell hole; a cesspool of insanity and cruelty. I still feel I would have been better off staying away and getting a GED.
Whether it makes for a "smarter" country or not, I don't think paying for a system like that is necessarily good.
Walt
We have a system where people who have absolutely no desire to be in school are somewhat forced to be there and many of them disrupt the educations of those who *do* want to be there.
I did not want to go to high school. I resented being forced to go. I considered it to be a hell hole; a cesspool of insanity and cruelty. I still feel I would have been better off staying away and getting a GED.
Whether it makes for a "smarter" country or not, I don't think paying for a system like that is necessarily good.
Walt
QuoteI too, do not plan on having children. But I like innovation, art, creativity, new ideas. If our children do not receive a basic education, the alot of what I like will lessen. Basic education may not give them everything, but it gives many drive to be better. I know it did for me.
It's not clear to me that I got much of *any* kind of education between grades 5 and 12, and I would bet that home schooling can do a far better job of teaching the material taught in grades 1 - 4.
Walt
QuoteQuoteI too, do not plan on having children. But I like innovation, art, creativity, new ideas. If our children do not receive a basic education, the alot of what I like will lessen. Basic education may not give them everything, but it gives many drive to be better. I know it did for me.
It's not clear to me that I got much of *any* kind of education between grades 5 and 12, and I would bet that home schooling can do a far better job of teaching the material taught in grades 1 - 4.
Walt
And that is your personal experience. I had mine and I also know that I would have not gotten into college without public school. And I would not have the good job I possess now.
And do you think every parent has the time to homeschool? It is just not a realistic expectation. Not only must the parent learn to be a good teacher but many parent work full time.
Yes, the argument could be made, "then they should not have kids." But then who would have the kids? Only the rich, who can afford maids or nannies or not working?
That idea simply will not stop people from having kids. And like I said, they will have kids who have no chance to ever further themselves because their parents made poor mistakes. And most likely, they will go onto to make the same mistakes if they make it out alive.
Public school has ALOT of problems, but it is something we need to at least give kids a chance no matter if their parents are morons or not.
(I also agree though that people should not be FORCED to go to school. But then, GED IS an option)
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
QuoteThat said, I'm not sure I agree with the voucher system. It seems to me that the money is better spent improving the system we have.
Rhonda - this seems to be the classic response to anything that is failing or screwed up. "We need more money." "Obviously, if we had more money, we would be better at this." So they get more money and things don't improve. "We didn't have enough money." Ad nauseum.
There are four ways to spend money, Rhonda:
1) Spend your money on yourself - this way, you want the best product for the best price.
2) Spend your money on somebody else - It's your money so you'll be cheap and not care if they need it or whether the product is any good. This is why I get underwear for Christmas. I don't even wear it,
3) Spend somebody else's money on yourself - you'll want to have the best you can get for that money you have. It's like a gift certificate - it let's you decide what's the best thing for you.
4) Spend somebody else's money on somebody else - screw the cost, screw the product, don't worry whether it's any good, don't bitch about something that's free (even if you are paying for it in taxes). Expensive? No worries, it's not your money. Is it good? Who cares? I don't need it.
Public schooling is Number 4. What's wrong with making it No. 3? Put a little choice in there for the parents and the schools as opposed to just forcing someone into something geographically?
"Ooh. But this school might close because nobody wants to go there." Exactly. If a school sucks, is it good policy to force kids to go there?
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteI'm not going to start wailing on welfare mothers because each case is different. I will, however, gladly wail on people who take advantage of that system simply because they can, or people who live ridiculous lifestyles knowing that they have welfare to fall back on.
I think that your notion of what people on welfare are like is very skewed. When you say ridiculous lifestyle do you mean working a full-time minimum wage job, trying to feed a small child as a single parent, pay for that child's daycare needs and pay bills? I think that that is a more accurate description of someone on welfare than "people who live ridiculous lifestyles".
Check out the minimum wage in your state, it's about $7.50 here. Which means a 40 hour work week leaves you with about $300 before taxes.. that is less than $15,000 per year. Try working out a budget for that which includes paying for rent, electricity, garbage, water, food, child-care costs, gas, car insurance, car payments and trying to save for retirement or the child's education. Maybe that will help your perspective a bit.
-karen
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Actually you are right. I wasn't thinking about it like that. Everyone should get vouchers that can be used for public or private schools.
There, I have changed my mind.
There, I have changed my mind.
Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.
jaaska 0
QuoteQuoteI too, do not plan on having children. But I like innovation, art, creativity, new ideas. If our children do not receive a basic education, the alot of what I like will lessen. Basic education may not give them everything, but it gives many drive to be better. I know it did for me.
It's not clear to me that I got much of *any* kind of education between grades 5 and 12, and I would bet that home schooling can do a far better job of teaching the material taught in grades 1 - 4.
Walt
... During the grades 1-4 pupils learn to be part of a group, interact and work together. Establishing this in home schooling is somewhat more difficult. Not impossible, just a bit more difficult (of course this depends on the size of your family).
QuoteI think that your notion of what people on welfare are like is very skewed. When you say ridiculous lifestyle do you mean working a full-time minimum wage job, trying to feed a small child as a single parent, pay for that child's daycare needs and pay bills? I think that that is a more accurate description of someone on welfare than "people who live ridiculous lifestyles".
I'm sure my view *is* very skewed, so let me tell you what my view is.
For starters, as I said in a previous post, I think each case is quite different. I have no problems whatsoever with society helping the less fortunate--especially people who have been dealt severe blows from changes in the economy and need a hand getting back on their feet.
I'm well aware of the "working poor". I've been there and it was rough even without having kids. Again, I have no problem with helping anyone who is trying to get out of that hole.
Where I start having a problem, though, is with the idea of multi-generations of a family on welfare. It exists and it points to serious problems in the system.
I also have a problem with someone who lives in government-owned or subsidized housing who profits from criminal activities *or* lets someone who does live with them. That, in my opinion, is a ridiculous lifestyle and it does exist.
Quote
Check out the minimum wage in your state, it's about $7.50 here. Which means a 40 hour work week leaves you with about $300 before taxes.. that is less than $15,000 per year. Try working out a budget for that which includes paying for rent, electricity, garbage, water, food, child-care costs, gas, car insurance, car payments and trying to save for retirement or the child's education. Maybe that will help your perspective a bit.
-karen
What I wonder is why someone in that position *before* they have kids decides to have a kid. Or worse, why would anyone in that position have *more* kids?
Should I pay for that kind of irresponsibility. I be more ok with it if their kids were taken away from them and put in an environment where they did not have that kind of socially-retard role model. Further, I think the parent should be billed for the care of their kids.
Walt
QuoteQuoteThat said, I'm not sure I agree with the voucher system. It seems to me that the money is better spent improving the system we have.
Rhonda - this seems to be the classic response to anything that is failing or screwed up. "We need more money." "Obviously, if we had more money, we would be better at this." So they get more money and things don't improve. "We didn't have enough money." Ad nauseum.
What we're doing now is not giving more money to the school system. We're taking it away.
I don't see how that's going to improve anything.
rl
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb
rehmwa 2
QuoteActually you are right. I wasn't thinking about it like that. Everyone should get vouchers that can be used for public or private schools.
Definition of the voucher program. A choice on where you send you kid to school. I don't see what's so objectionable about that. Except for the public school who had the monopoly. If this was the telephone company or Enron, or Halliburton, imagine the outrage over the monopoly and how bad that is for society.
...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
that's the last thing we need....
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