Our Endangered Values - Jimmy Carter

[karenmeal 0]

Has anyone else read this book?

I'm almost done with it.. this book is great. It seems like all of Carter's opinions are actually in line with his religious beliefs. What a refreshing change!

I'm sending a copy to my brother, who is a proud member of the religious right, and completely approves of Bush.

Anyways... flame away?

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[labrys 0]

I haven't read it but I've read a few of his books about the Middle East and some of his poetry.

I'm not a religous person at all and I've never felt comfortable with those who are whether I know them or just know of them with very few exceptions.

He's one of the few I've felt was truly honest and commited to his values. I admire that about him.

So when you say you sent the book to your brother were you being funny or has Jimmy suddenly become attractive to the conservative right?

Owned by Remi #?

[kelpdiver 2]

the Right LOVES Jimmy - he was their poster boy for the Democratic Party until Clinton came along.

Probably not unfairly. Though he was dealt a crappy hand, he looks to be a very smart man, but a very poor administrator.

[karenmeal 0]

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So when you say you sent the book to your brother were you being funny or has Jimmy suddenly become attractive to the conservative right?

I feel it would do my brother good to read this book. As a Southern Baptist, Jimmy Carter strongly disagrees with many things that we now associate with the religious right, mostly he writes about the big ones, support of the war in Iraq, and support of President Bush and what his administration has done in the last six years. He also recognizes the importance of the seperation of church and state and speaks out against things like teaching intelligent design in the classroom and having prayer in public schools.

I am not a religious person myself. One thing that sickens me about organized religion is the blatant hypocrisy that exists that everyone seems to be so blind to. So often we see people picking and choosing the bible verse that best suits their needs and ignoring the fundamental (peaceful) teachings of their chosen religion. (ex: Christian support of the death penalty... how the heck does that work?) However Jimmy Carter actually seems to live his life according to his belief system, AND he used to be a politician!

Anyways.. I was hoping some people had read it, perhaps Republicans who could tell me exactly what points they disagree with. If you accept the stuff in this book as truth, it would have to sway your political views.


-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[labrys 0]

That's what I'd hoped to hear.

Owned by Remi #?

[NWFlyer 2]

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However Jimmy Carter actually seems to live his life according to his belief system, AND he used to be a politician!

That's one of the reasons he was never a particularly effective politician. But he's always been a very effective human being, and many have called him our best ex-president. He's definitely someone whose views I'm always interested in hearing. He was a last minute substitution for my grad school graduation ceremony (the fact that his grandson was graduating the undergrad program helped ) and it was a real treat to get to hear him speak in person.

I think it's a great gift for your brother ... give it to him and say "I really enjoyed this book - I'm looking forward to seeing what you think." Don't send him in with any bias... see where he goes with it.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[karenmeal 0]

Well Krisanne, you should go get the book and read it! I would give you mine but Jeff has to read it, then my mom, then my brother.

Do you think the reason that Carter wasn't a very effective politician was because he wasn't playing the game? (Lying, taking money.. stuff like that) I'm just curious because I don't know much about him. (wasn't alive then.)

Anyways...

I will definitely give it to my brother, he recently got me a book about Christianity to read, so I figure a book about politics written by a Southern Baptist would be appropriate for him. It's a fairly easy read too.

So... I thought that someone would want to come and try to discredit Jimmy Carter. Should I start posting passages from the book?

-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[labrys 0]

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I'm just curious because I don't know much about him. (wasn't alive then.)

Ohhhhh Ouch...my back hurts and my joints are stiff

He was President when I graduated from High School (in Georgia). I liked him then. I think that there's some truth in the idea that he wasn't a successful President because he didn't play the game. I also thought that the timing of the Iran hostage release was a tad too convenient for Reagan and the elections...

Not that I'd accuse the Repubs of rigging an election

Owned by Remi #?

[Amazon 7]

When I was having a conversation with one of the Ultra Right Hand Boys on here a coule days ago he asked what I would suggest.. I thought about it.. but knew he would never actually read a book... especially since it is not filled with some of that warm love from someone like Ann Coulter. I mean its on the New York Times bestseller list.. that is another strike against it. Its not from an approved source approved by the thought police.


Oh and serving under President Carter was a VERY tough time in the military....Nixon then Frod then Carter... eeeeesshhh

[labrys 0]

This thread brings back such good and bad memories

I will never forget a field trip in HS we took from Augusta to the Andersonville Prison Camp (from the Civil War) I was about 15.

Not only was it a cool as hell trip, but we stopped in Plains and bought beer on the way home. How in the hell a school bus full of 15 year olds managed to buy beer is a laugh now.

Even better fun is that it was Billy Beer.

Then Reagon won the election and I left the country!

Owned by Remi #?

[EricTheRed 0]

Jimmy Carter is a very intelligent, articulate and compassionate Christian. His downfall was that he is another case of nice guys, while not finishing last, surely got screwed.
The Iranian hostage thing was clearly orchestrated, and being the man he is, he chose to continue to try to help people in need instead of trying to tear the country apart.

One thing is clear about Mr Carter, you know where e stands, and can believe that he believes what he says. That is a rare quality in a politician.

illegible usually

[NWFlyer 2]

Sounds like I'm way down on the list for people to borrow the book. It's okay, my "to read" pile is huge right now!

I was a bit young to really remember much of substance about the Carter Administration while it was going on, but I've enjoyed watching Carter use his talents elsewhere since then in international affairs as well as domestic ones (such as his support of Habitat for Humanity).

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[labrys 0]

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Jimmy Carter is a very intelligent, articulate and compassionate Christian. His downfall was that he is another case of nice guys, while not finishing last, surely got screwed.
The Iranian hostage thing was clearly orchestrated, and being the man he is, he chose to continue to try to help people in need instead of trying to tear the country apart.

One thing is clear about Mr Carter, you know where e stands, and can believe that he believes what he says. That is a rare quality in a politician.

This is very well stated, in my opinion.

Owned by Remi #?

[micro 0]

While I certainly agree that Mr. Carter seems, by all accounts, to be a man of integrity and great faith, there is one thing you wrote that many others on here have spoken of as well that I'd like to address. You wrote...

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I am not a religious person myself. One thing that sickens me about organized religion is the blatant hypocrisy that exists that everyone seems to be so blind to. So often we see people picking and choosing the bible verse that best suits their needs and ignoring the fundamental (peaceful) teachings of their chosen religion. (ex: Christian support of the death penalty... how the heck does that work?)

While it is true that hypocrisy abounds in humanity (and not just w/i organized religion - they hardly have the patent on it), it continues to surprises me that non-religious people are always so scandalized by a religious person not living up to his or her professed belief system.

I mean, if you're looking hard enough, you will see that EVERYONE is a hypocrite. Everyone falls short. Everyone cuts corners from time to time. That doesn't make it right, it just means that you're human. And while it is deplorable, I agree, for a Christian, or any other member of a religion, to consciously profess belief in a creed yet live like they do not, I think that in many cases, this is actually not the case.

For example... your example of the death penalty. I personally do not support it. I feel it is inconsistent w/ my pro-life stance. However, I can see how some Christians feel it is justified, given their particular belief, understanding of scripture, theological upbringing, etc. After listening to some of their arguments, while I disagree w/ them, I can understand how they came to the conclusions they came to and it would be a travesty of justice for me to label them a "blatant hypocrite."

It seems to me that it is more difficult, yet far more rewarding, to actually try to listen to and understand those people who may appear to be the hypocrites of any particular religion, to actually try and get behind the "why" of their actions and the apparent inconsistencies w/ their beliefs rather than taking the easy path of dismissing organized religion out of hand b/c of what you think you may be witnessing. For one thing, it just may effect a dramatic change in the person you think is a hypocrite. And second, you just may learn something you didn't know.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[karenmeal 0]

OK, So I didn't want to hijack this thread and turn it into reasons why support of the death penalty is hypocritical for Christians, but a brief word on that.

People make mistakes, sure, all the freaking time. But things like adultery, lying, not respecting your parents, those are to be expected. But after careful reasoning, to come to the conclusion that the death penalty and the bible can jive? That's just freaking wrong. I'm not going to be openminded about this, because even the bible does not encourage you to be openminded about this, it is fairly blunt on this matter.

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However, I can see how some Christians feel it is justified, given their particular belief, understanding of scripture, theological upbringing, etc.

Here is a pop quiz for you to show how interpreting the bible is not that hard and scary, it will also show you how these people you ar defending are very wrong:

1.) After a group of people tried to stone a woman for her sins, Jesus stopped them by saying, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." This might mean:

a.) Only women can stone sinners.
b.) Kill the sinner, afterall, we proved that they committed the sin.
c.) After the first guy throws the stone, it's free game for everyone.
d.) Since we're not perfect, we shouldn't pass judgement on others.

If you coudn't guess, the correct answer is d.

2.) "Thou Shalt Not Kill" could be interpreted:

a.) Don't kill people on Sundays.
b.) Only kill people who have killed people. (Two negatives equals a positive.)
c.) Don't kill wealthy white men, kill everyone else.
d.) Both b and c are correct.
e.) None of the above.

The correct answer is E. However, if you looked at records of the use of the death penalty (especially states in the bible belt) you may think the correct answer is d, but that is wrong.


-Karen

"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham

[micro 0]

first of all, how am I defending those you so disdainfully look down upon as hypocrites? I'm simply trying to say that listening to what they have to say might surprise you. dismissing whole groups of people in one fell swoop as you seem to do does nothing but further the chasm that divides people in this world.

second, in spite of your tone of condescension, let's address your "pop quiz."

in example 1, the woman was caught in adultery. how do you know that jesus' saving the woman from stoning wasn't more about the injustice of killing someone for that particular "sin?" how do you know he wasn't saying to those w/ rocks in their hand that they had not right to stone her since they themselves may have committed the same sin? the text is not clear on this. while i happen to agree w/ you on this matter (did you even catch that in the original post?), it's understandable to see how this passage can be seen as something OTHER than absolute prohibition on capital punishment.

in example number two, there is valid evidence to support that notion that the commandment you reference is more accurately translated "thou shall not murder," meaning, thou shall not spill innocent blood. think about this for a minute... am I not justified in defending my life against an assailant? am I not tasked w/ the solemn duty to protect my wife and children from harm? this means, quite possibly, that I might need to kill someone who is hell-bent on harming me or my family. does God expect me to stand back and do nothing while some man rapes my daughters? God forbid! So if I happen to kill him while in the process of trying to stop him from raping my daughters, am I then guilty of breaking this commandment? according to your interpretation (fundamentalist interpretation at that!) of the scripture in question, I would be guilty.

So, if this scripture really means thou shall not murder, as in don't spill innocent blood, what does this mean for the death penalty? Again, hear me... I AGREE WITH YOU, the death penalty is wrong. however, listening to these counter arguments should at least give you something to chew on rather than being disdainful and dismissive.

Consider one more thing... what if our society did not have the capability to contain murderous criminals. Some would argue that a perfect containment system doesn't currently exist anyhow. Murderers have escaped. Does the state not have an obligation to protect it's citizenry from those who would deprive us of life? Would not the state then be complicit in the breaking of the second commandment? That's a rather compelling argument for the death penalty, no? I personally believe we CAN create a better containment system so as to protect society from murderers. But still, the argument has merit.

-michael

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[TheAnvil 0]

Jimmy Carter was one of the worst presidents in American history. I'd agree that he's a compassionate man, but as a President and an administrator he pretty much set the modern day standard in the incompetence department.

"The country is in a malaise and I don't know what to do about it." One of the great quotes of the 20th Century.

Carter's post-Presidential work with Habitat for Humanity has been most admirable. His endorsement of the Venezuelan elections, however, show how little credibility he really has. Even Happy Gilmore would have known they were rigged. His acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize - when the committee admitted that their contempt of the current President was one reason Carter received the award - was utterly despicable.

With regards to Christianity and the death penalty - read up a bit on Aquinas' comments on that. He presents three objections and overcomes them all in Summa Theologica. Excellent reading.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Andy9o8 2]

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Jimmy Carter ....
..."The country is in a malaise and I don't know what to do about it." One of the great quotes of the 20th Century.

As a matter of basic fairness, if you're going to quote someone to his detriment, at least quote him accurately.

From Wikipedia: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_carter )
On July 15, 1979, Carter gave a nationally-televised address in which he identified what he believed to be a "crisis of confidence" among the American people. This has come to be known as his "malaise" speech, even though he never actually used the word "malaise" anywhere in the text

Nor, for that matter, did he say "I don't know what to do about it", either.

FYI, the complete text of the actual speech can be found here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/carter/filmmore/ps_crisis.html

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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Carter gave a nationally-televised address in which he identified what he believed to be a "crisis of confidence" among the American people.

Fortunately for America, Ronald Reagan came along and he was able to restore our confidence as a nation. Carter did have an interesting brother however, I mean how many people can say they peed _on_ Airforce One? (Ted Kennedy has I'll bet.)


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[Andy9o8 2]

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His {Carter's} acceptance of the Nobel Peace Prize - when the committee admitted that their contempt of the current President was one reason Carter received the award - was utterly despicable.

A half-truth is sometimes more misleading than an outright untruth. Yes, the committee chairman expressed that view. But other members of the committee quickly went on public record unequivocally disagreeing with and distancing themselves from that statement, stating that the chairman was indicating his personal beliefs only, and noting that that factor played no part in the committee's deliberations at all. But you conveniently neglected to mention that.

Here's an article that gives the full story, and not just half of it:

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:-deQ6HKHzFwJ:www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi%3Ff%3D/news/archive/2002/10/11/international1114EDT0620.DTL+%22jimmy+carter%22+committee+%22nobel+peace+prize%22+bush&hl=en&lr=lang_en

[Andy9o8 2]

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Carter did have an interesting brother however,I mean how many people can say they peed _on_ Airforce One? (Ted Kennedy has I'll bet.)]

Fascinating argument. Condemn Jimmy Carter, a Naval Academy graduate, nuclear engineer and world-renowned humanitarian, by comparing him to his uneducated, alcoholic brother, and then comparing the brother to Ted Kennedy.

What could I have been thinking? You've convinced me.

[micro 0]

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Carter did have an interesting brother however,I mean how many people can say they peed _on_ Airforce One? (Ted Kennedy has I'll bet.)]

Fascinating argument. Condemn Jimmy Carter, a Naval Academy graduate, nuclear engineer and world-renowned humanitarian, by comparing him to his uneducated, alcoholic brother, and then comparing the brother to Ted Kennedy.

What could I have been thinking? You've convinced me.

I remember reading that Jimmy Carter had such flat feet that he had to role them over a coke bottle repeatedly so that he wouldn't be rejected by the Navy.

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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Fascinating argument.

There’s your mistake. My comments did not contain an argument. They were solely intended to inject levity into the discussion. However I will say that Jimmy Carter’s decision to bring his chronically inebriated brother along with him on Airforce One during sensitive trips abroad demonstrated poor judgment on the part of the President, which I do argue was a hallmark of the Carter Administration.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[TheAnvil 0]

Call it a paraphrase then, but the gist is accurate. The chairman's remarks alone with regards to the Nobel Peace Prize should have been enough to deter the man from accepting it. But then again, who gives a damn about a prize awarded to a scumbag like Arafat (yes, I'm very glad he's dead).

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Andy9o8 2]

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Fascinating argument.

There’s your mistake. My comments did not contain an argument. They were solely intended to inject levity into the discussion. However I will say that Jimmy Carter’s decision to bring his chronically inebriated brother along with him on Airforce One during sensitive trips abroad demonstrated poor judgment on the part of the President, which I do argue was a hallmark of the Carter Administration.

Oh, yes. Certainly far worse than Ron Reagan allowing presidential decisions to be guided by the advice of Nancy's astrologer.

C'mon, now. Do you really want to bring the discussion down to this level? Please.