Antisemitism and other 'racial' issues

[RossDagley 0]

For a first post on SC, I thought I'd pick a question I've thought about for a while to get others standpoints on it.

Religion, regardless of which religion, is based on very little 'fact' and a great deal of 'fiction' (or 'belief' if you prefer). With this in mind, what is the moral background to Antisemitism and other 'religious' laws?

For example - if someone truely, genuinely believes Roswell/Area 51 and all that 'alien' stuff (just using this as an example) surely I have a right to disagree with that belief and to express that opinion towards the 'believer' - IE, "you're a fool if you believe that".

However, if I said "You're a Jew, therefore your a fool" I would be saying this because I believed the Jewish person's beliefs were flawed/foolish. However, I'd be being antisemitic.

What with the forthcoming British laws to protect Muslims in the same way as the Jewish were protected after WW2, I'd be interested to hear others viewpoints on the matter. IE, should you be 'allowed' to disagree with a belief? After all - its just that - a bunch of people believing the same thing. Whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or Jedi.

For the record, I have no religious bias (that I'm aware of).

Minor edits for spelling.

[waltappel 1]

Personally I think most forms of bias, whether racial or otherwise, are far more rooted in cultural differences. It's the "familiarity breeds contempt" kind of thing.

Want to turn a normal, well-adjusted white person into a racist? Easy, just surround the white person with one, and only one "minority" for a year or so.

It's not that white people are any more prone to racism than anyone else, I just used a white person as an example. I think it would work just as well for a person of virtually any ethnicity.

Same goes for religions.

Same goes for skydivers for that matter. Want to get a wuffo to hate jumpers? Surround the wuffo with jumpers for a year.

The best way I have ever heard it put was, "People don't know what they like, they like what they know."

Amen.

I think that is the fundamental root of most biases and it is independent of religious beliefs.

Walt

[miked10270 0]

I believe that it basically comes down to XENOPHOBIA!

This must surely be the most common and dangerous irrational fear humans suffer from, yet it remains untreated!

Fear of Spiders? We can fix that. Fear of Flying? Open spaces? Closed spaces?... You CAN be treated.

BUT... Fear of outsiders? That seems to be acceptable. Societies seem to accept that sufferers of this irrational fear have a right to refuse & resist treatment, regardless of the consequences of their refusal!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[waltappel 1]

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BUT... Fear of outsiders? That seems to be acceptable. Societies seem to accept that sufferers of this irrational fear have a right to refuse & resist treatment, regardless of the consequences of their refusal!

Mike.

Yes, it IS acceptable because it's an individual choice. Who are you to say it's wrong and a disease to be treated?

Even though I may think you are mentally defective (I really don't, this is just for discussion) because of your views, I still think you have every right to have those views.

Sorry, you don't get my vote for God.

Walt

[rasmack 0]

Antisemitism has historically very little to do with faith. Religion has always just been the excuse. Take Germany in the 20's and 30's. There was no religious reason what so ever for the hatred against the jews. They were simply a closely knit easily identifiable community that tended to do well financially. Conclusion: They were immoral parasites on society and they should be removed. Consequence: With the jews being gone and all, we can just take their stuff.

So, of course you are allowed to disagree with the fundamental tenets of judaism or islam. What you are not allowed to do is to define the "muslim race" as "unwanted" and then forget to look at the individual person in your blind hatred. ("You" not being you personally of course )

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[RossDagley 0]

Obviously this is discussing creed over race - anti-black or anti-asian is a seperate issue. Just to stop this going off topic

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So, of course you are allowed to disagree with the fundamental tenets of judaism or islam

But I'm not. If a Jehovah's Witness knocks at my door and I insult his 'belief' I'll liable to be prosecuted under racism laws, and this is the fundamental point of my discussion. I call him a "stupid Jehovah" and I'm the one in the mire. (So instead, i say "Sorry, I'm off to give blood" - but thats dragging it off-topic )

I'm trying assertain to what level freedom of speech (of which theres very little in the UK) is affected by racism laws. Frankly, if you're of the 'jedi' belief (http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/features/living/faith/faith_jedi_feature.shtml) then your a fucking idiot, make no mistake. But would I dare to voice that same opinion against a Christian?

Whats the difference? Simple. The number of believers. Its more 'acceptable' to be Christian than Jedi. Its not often I'll quote Hitler, but from "Mein Kampf" -

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that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes

[artistcalledian 0]

i think it's wrong to say people can't be racist if they want to be, who the fuck do others think they are by telling somebody what they can think or not

being racist might not be ok for one person, but it can be fine for others

I've got a black friend who once said to me "everybody is racist to some degree" even black people. I know i'm racist if i see blacks and asians in England who do not respect the English way of life. I immediately think "that black bastard should not......." insterad of "that bastard should not........"

I think being racist is fine, if thats what you want to be

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[miked10270 0]

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Yes, it IS acceptable because it's an individual choice. Who are you to say it's wrong and a disease to be treated? ...

XENOPHOBIA: (Ancient Greek root); Irrational fear (Phobia) of "outsiders"(Xen).

I propose that just as Agorophobia, Claustrophobia, Arachnophobia, Homophobia etc... Are irrational states of mind, since the fear has no ground in fact. Then Xenophobia (a fear of outsiders simply because they ARE outsiders) is similarly irrational. Just because a given society chooses to call it Racism or Religious Intolerance (or Hatred), does not change the fundamental irrationality of this particular phobia.

I thus believe that Xenophobia, when projected as a racial or religious hatred should be considered as a mental illness and treated, rather than merely as a crime and simply punished!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[wmw999 2,589]

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I propose that just as Agorophobia, Claustrophobia, Arachnophobia, Homophobia etc... Are irrational states of mind

nothing irrational about that one. Tarantulas are big hairy and scary.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[RossDagley 0]

Its a fair point (think "a time to kill" - when you ook at me you dont see a man, you see a BLACK man"). Equally, its off my original topic a little, but I think I see where you're coming from...

[miked10270 0]

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nothing irrational about that one. Tarantulas are big hairy and scary.

Yeah... But while you can have a PHOBIA (irrational fear) of spiders, a fear of a particular spider that can injure you is not irrational and hence not a phobia! You can suffer from an irrational fear of snakes (Ophidiophobia), but the fear generated at a Diamondback 2 feet away from you and looking pi$$ed off is perfectly rational and thus not a phobia!

Similarly, a fear of flying is considered irrational. A fear of Suddenly NOT Flying (right after the engines go quiet and a wing falls off) is perfectly rational (unless of course you've brought your rig as carry on - in which case your fear of not getting outta' the plane before the other passengers catch on to what you're wearing is similarly rational)!

The point I make is that I consider such statements as:

"Whitey's gonna kill us!"
"The Blacks will rise up and destroy our lives!"
"Homosexuals want to rape our children!"
"The (insert group of choice) are going to get us!"

As IRRATIONAL!!!

Therefore, people making these pronouncements need help & treatment as well as (or instead of) punishment for espousing these beliefs.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[chuteless 1]

If anyone thinks there is no antisemitism in the world today outside of the Arab world, they are very wrong.

Unfortunately, I stringly believe there will be a dramatic increase in anti-semitism in a few years from now. and it will increase to unbelieveable proportions.

Hitler may be dead, but many of his sick ideas are not....they just lie undisturbed until the anti-christ comes, then all will appear stronger then ever before.

Bill Cole


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[wmw999 2,589]

Damn. I pull your leg and it comes right off in my hand. WTF do I do with it now?

I got your point. Probably just pointing out that nearly everyone is scared enough of something that they react with their gut first, and their brain second.

And tarantulas are really out-of-proportion scary to their ability to do harm.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Guest]

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I believe that it basically comes down to XENOPHOBIA!

This must surely be the most common and dangerous irrational fear humans suffer from, yet it remains untreated!

Fear of Spiders? We can fix that. Fear of Flying? Open spaces? Closed spaces?... You CAN be treated.

BUT... Fear of outsiders? That seems to be acceptable. Societies seem to accept that sufferers of this irrational fear have a right to refuse & resist treatment, regardless of the consequences of their refusal!

Mike.

I think that it's an instinctive form of self-preservation that is hard-wired into the human race. Like attracts like. There is also the little matter of the right of association, which is often overlooked in our society due to its zeal with political correctness, but most people vote with their feet.

Integration in communities has only led to white flight. One need only look at Detroit, MI and environs to see the results of forced integration.

As we've seen in Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact, the players who were forced to coexist at gunpoint by a larger authority (the late Soviet Union) immediately reverted back to their old, preferred ways and habits. That's why there's still a UN mission in the Balkans, and it will continue into the foreseeable future.

Here's a fascinating anecdote from cinema. During shooting of the original "Planet of the Apes" feature, the characters and extras made up as different species (chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan) all stayed largely with their own "kind" during breaks in filming. Nobody made the actors behave that way, and since most were extras with non-speaking roles, they had no character rationale to justify it. It was a natural tendency.

And there you have it (human [and primate, I might add] behavior) in a nutshell.

As I mentioned in another thread, one cannot legislate human nature. One can make certain behaviors criminal through classing misconduct as Thought Crime, but in the end, hard hearts won't change.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[miked10270 0]

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Damn. I pull your leg and it comes right off in my hand. WTF do I do with it now?

That depends... If you suffer from Apotemnophobia then I'd quite understand if you just scream, drop it & run away!

Otherwise... I'd kind of like it back please?

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And tarantulas are really out-of-proportion scary to their ability to do harm.

They look cute, with their little Portugese-Hairy legs etc... BUT... Waking up to find one just about to bite you neck (or worse, more "sensitive" parts of the anatomy) makes the "James Bond" response seem perfectly rational to me!

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[artistcalledian 0]

what about Rhondaphobia? an irrational fear of the Mona Lisa

joke !

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[kelpdiver 2]

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So, of course you are allowed to disagree with the fundamental tenets of judaism or islam

But I'm not. If a Jehovah's Witness knocks at my door and I insult his 'belief' I'll liable to be prosecuted under racism laws, and this is the fundamental point of my discussion. I call him a "stupid Jehovah" and I'm the one in the mire. (So instead, i say "Sorry, I'm off to give blood" - but thats dragging it off-topic )

I'm trying assertain to what level freedom of speech (of which theres very little in the UK) is affected by racism laws.

If you can't insult a missionary that knocks on your door, there's the problem. This was one of the top spectator (or participant) sports on the Berkeley campus. Man (always men it seemed) come to the main square and start spouting about God, and then the hecklers start countering with taunts, shoutings, sometimes naked bodies.

That said, I think there is a difference of having faith in a religion, and believing in the common conspiracy theories as fact with nothing to support them.

[waltappel 1]

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The point I make is that I consider such statements as:

"Whitey's gonna kill us!"
"The Blacks will rise up and destroy our lives!"
"Homosexuals want to rape our children!"
"The (insert group of choice) are going to get us!"

As IRRATIONAL!!!

Therefore, people making these pronouncements need help & treatment as well as (or instead of) punishment for espousing these beliefs.

Mike.

Yes, let's consider all people who don't think like you do to be lunatics in need of treatment.

You have appointed yourself the thought police and decided that freedom of choice and thought have no place in your world.

You can have your world. I prefer mine, where people are free to think as they will, whether their thinking is like mine or not.

You paint a picture where people are "afraid" of outsiders or groups of people not like them. Where do you draw the line between fear and "don't like" or "prefer not to be around"? In my mind, you can't.

What if I were to tell you that I had spent years in North Yemen and that I absolutely hate Yemenis and hope I never see one again?

Who are you to judge whether I'm crazy or dysfunctional for thinking that?

Now, I have never been to North Yemen and know nothing about its people. I am assuming you have not either. Due you feel truly qualified to pass judgement on someone who has and came away from that experience with a really deep-rooted hatred of its people? If so, you are operating on assumptions and you are claiming your assumptions are superior to another person's real-world life experience.

Could you possibly be any more arrogant in your thinking? Hardly.

Your type of thinking is typical of the hypocrisy I see in the attitudes of people I refer to as liberal pinheads. You preach tolerance toward everyone except those who happen to disagree with your views.

It's not tolerance unless it includes people you consider to be intolerant. What you propose would not make a better world; it would be a case of trying to force-fit a world to be consistent with your view of how things should be.

That doesn't make you tolerant; it just makes you a sugar-coated Hitler. Sieg Heil, my friend.

(Just to make something clear, I have nothing against Yemenis. I know nothing about them or their country. I used that example because I think it is safe to say that relatively dz.commers have been there.)

Walt

[RhondaLea 4]

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The point I make is that I consider such statements as:

"Whitey's gonna kill us!"
"The Blacks will rise up and destroy our lives!"
"Homosexuals want to rape our children!"
"The (insert group of choice) are going to get us!"

As IRRATIONAL!!!

Therefore, people making these pronouncements need help & treatment as well as (or instead of) punishment for espousing these beliefs.

Mike.

What if I were to tell you that I had spent years in North Yemen and that I absolutely hate Yemenis and hope I never see one again?

There's nothing wrong with that until "I hope I never see a Yemeni again" becomes "Yemenis are child molestors," "Yemenis are evil and must be destroyed," "Yemenis are not allowed to live, work, shop in my neighborhood" and somebody comes along and starts shooting, hanging and torturing Yemenis.

If you can't see the difference between what Mike is saying and your interpretation of what he said...well, I don't know what to say about that.

Tolerance is not welcoming someone with open arms. To the contrary, it is leaving him alone to do as he will. You don't interfere in his life, he won't interfere in yours, even if it just so happens you can't abide the sight of each other.

IMO, anything beyond that is pathological.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[waltappel 1]

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There's nothing wrong with that until "I hope I never see a Yemeni again" becomes "Yemenis are child molestors," "Yemenis are evil and must be destroyed," "Yemenis are not allowed to live, work, shop in my neighborhood" and somebody comes along and starts shooting, hanging and torturing Yemenis.

If you can't see the difference between what Mike is saying and your interpretation of what he said...well, I don't know what to say about that.

What I see in Mike's statements are more along the line of "I don't like these people because I somehow feel threatend by them" as opposed to "Let's go do harm to these people". In the real world, people (at least the people I have been around) don't say, "Yemenis scare me", they say, "I hate Yemenis", so I connect what he is saying with dislike and hate and don't even see a connection to "Let's go kill".

Even if we take out the dislike/hate and focus on the "I'm scared of...", which seems ludicrous to me, if I function beautifully in every other aspect of my life other than dealing with Yemenis, and I'm a happy, productive human being as long as I avoid those frightening Yemenis, then I still maintain that he has a level of arrogance that would make Hitler truly proud, if he wants to send me off to the nuthouse because I don't want anything to do with Yemenis.

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Tolerance is not welcoming someone with open arms. To the contrary, it is leaving him alone to do as he will. You don't interfere in his life, he won't interfere in yours, even if it just so happens you can't abide the sight of each other.

IMO, anything beyond that is pathological.

rl

I agree with that. Why do you not want to leave people alone so they can talk trash about "those damn Yemenis" or whatever? I'm perfectly willing to do that as long as they don't go out and try to harm some poor Yemeni who just happens to be walking down their street. That is what I'm talking about with tolerance. I am absolutely willing to tolerate people who I thoroughly disagree with as long as they aren't hurting anyone else.

In fact, should I get the urge this evening, I will sit around and smugly think about how superior I am to those filthy little Yemenis. Kinda doubt that I will, but should I not have that option since it hurts no one?

Walt

[artistcalledian 0]

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IMO, anything beyond that is pathological.

is that performed by sociopaths? how about cycle paths? are they just as dangerous?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[waltappel 1]

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IMO, anything beyond that is pathological.

is that performed by sociopaths? how about cycle paths? are they just as dangerous?

Gee, and you were doing so well with this post. I was pretty impressed.

Walt

p.s. What happened to the Hitler avatar? I thought that one was pretty funny (in a "you" sort of way).

[artistcalledian 0]

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What happened to the Hitler avatar? I thought that one was pretty funny

some people felt the need to cry like little babies to the mods, i was asked to remove it

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[waltappel 1]

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What happened to the Hitler avatar? I thought that one was pretty funny

some people felt the need to cry like little babies to the mods, i was asked to remove it

That's a shame. I understood the sarcasm you were communicating with it and thought it quite funny. It worked for you because the idea of superimposing Hitler onto the class clown was a really clever thing.

You were not sending a hate message; you were sending a funny message. I guess some people can't take a joke.

By the way, you're humor is getting pretty clever at times. You've give me a couple of great laughs recently--thanks.

Walt

[miked10270 0]

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The point I make is that I consider such statements as...
"The (insert group of choice) are going to get us!"

As IRRATIONAL!!!

Therefore, people making these pronouncements need help & treatment as well as (or instead of) punishment for espousing these beliefs.

... consider all people who don't think like you do to be lunatics in need of treatment.

NO! What I'm saying is that Xenophobia (as it shows in race / religion / sexuality hatred) should not be treated simply as a crime to be punished. consideration should ALSO be given to counselling, educating and exposing such Xenophobes in an attempt to cure their irrational fear & hatred. Or do you think we should just lock 'em all away? Just punish them?

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... appointed yourself the thought police ... freedom of choice and thought have no place in your world.

Eh!?

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What if I were to tell you that I had spent years in North Yemen and that I absolutely hate Yemenis...
Now, I have never been to North Yemen and know nothing about its people.

Why not take an example from you own travels and exposures to people who are "different"? North Texas would do!

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I am assuming...

There's a saying: ASSUME makes an ASS of yoU and ME!

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...pass judgement on someone who has and came away from that experience ...

Err... You state that you haven't actually had that experience!

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... you are operating on assumptions and you are claiming your assumptions are superior to another person's real-world life experience.

YOUR example is self-admittedly an assumption! You have no knowledge of my experiences but you appear to ASSUME they are as limited as yours.

What does ASSUME make?

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... arrogant ... hypocrisy I ... liberal pinheads... your view of how things should be ... just makes you a sugar-coated Hitler. Sieg Heil, my friend.

Best Wishes to our Victory indeed... My friend.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.