Militant Homosexual Agenda

[narcimund 0]

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But most people are able to make the distinction that all the Irish are not terrorists without having to believe that the terrorists are not Irish. Isn't that the ideal?

Yes, that is the ideal.

However it does NOT appear that most people or at least enough people can perform the same minor mental gymnastics regarding gay people and pedophiles.

Mark can't, at least. And neither can the rabid homophobes.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[artistcalledian 0]

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And neither can the rabid homophobes.

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[RhondaLea 4]

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However it does NOT appear that most people or at least enough people can perform the same minor mental gymnastics regarding gay people and pedophiles.

Mark can't, at least. And neither can the rabid homophobes.

But what the homophobes and Mr. Harju don't realize is that the pedophiles are angry with the gays for not supporting what they alone (the pedophiles) believe to be a natural alliance.

Apparently Mr. Harju thought he'd found himself a bomb, but he failed to examine it closely before posting the link, as if the very name of the organization would be enough to make his point.

So here, according NAMBLA spokesmodel, David Thorstad:

The basic argument of the gay movement today boils down to the following: Homosexuals are born that way, and heterosexuals are born that way; therefore, homosexual liberation poses no threat to the status quo and dominance of hetersupremacy. This is the old "nature versus nurture" argument dressed up in new, accommodationist clothes.

The gay assimilationists want to become part of an existing, inequitable capitalist society, not change that society in any fundamental way. Their approach is inherently selfish, not altruistic. They seek minor adjustments in the status quo, not radical social change. They have been co-opted by the heterosupremacist power structure.

It doesn't sound to me as if the gay community has common cause with pedophiles. I also hear the sound of the toilet flushing on the militant gay agenda.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Guest]

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>wow, they even have their own unions now !

Of course. You even get a free toaster when you open a savings account with $500 or more.

And when they go on strike, that means you're not gonna get any.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[artistcalledian 0]

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>wow, they even have their own unions now !

Of course. You even get a free toaster when you open a savings account with $500 or more.

And when they go on strike, that means you're not gonna get any.

mh

how about leaving the jokes to the cemediens eh?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[narcimund 0]

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So here, according NAMBLA spokesmodel, David Thorstad:

strange political rant snipped

How interesting. Thanks for doing that research, Rhonda. I hadn't even gone to that site. I wish I had so I would have seen that even the pedophiles note the disconnect between the two groups.

Mark Harju, your contribution to this discussion has been noted, examined, and thoroughly discredited.

A couple of hundred posts into a thread where I initially asked for this well-known "Militant Homosexual Agenda" has so far resulted in this many answers:

Zero!

One could HOPE that people would therefore stop using this ridiculous phrase from now on, but one can be quite certain they won't. It's too useful for the bigots to rile up the emotions of the sheep. Baaah!

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[likearock 2]

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So here, according NAMBLA spokesmodel, David Thorstad:

strange political rant snipped

How interesting. Thanks for doing that research, Rhonda. I hadn't even gone to that site. I wish I had so I would have seen that even the pedophiles note the distance between the two groups.

Mark Harju, your contribution to this discussion has been noted, examined, and thoroughly discredited.

A couple of hundred posts into a thread where I initially asked for this well-known "Militant Homosexual Agenda" has so far resulted in this many answers:

Zero!

One could HOPE that people would therefore stop using this ridiculous phrase from now on, but one can be quite certain they won't. It's too useful for the bigots to rile up the emotions of the sheep. Baaah!

It's not just gays, you know. There will always be a "Militant x Agenda" where x =

• feminist
• ecological
• hollywood
• gun owner
• gun control
• pro-life
• pro-choice

Some people will always define themselves by what they're against.

[wmw999 2,589]

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I initially asked for this well-known "Militant Homosexual Agenda"

Just for you.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Amazon 7]

AWW SHIT.. you took the attachment away.... I was looking at that REALLLLLY BIG GUN tab and thinking oh Please oh please oh please do not let Joh see that.. he might join just for the guns.

[livendive 8]

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You asked for proof of a "militant homosexual agenda", and I provided one (Unless the term "Man-Boy Love" is somehow not homosexual in nature, in which case it is my profound misunderstanding of what that term means.

It's all about the sets Mark. While NAMBLA members are within the set of homosexuals, that inclusion says nothing more about homosexuals than it does about men in general. You could just as easily assert that NAMBLA is proof of the "militant male agenda", and it would be just as inane.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[RhondaLea 4]

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You asked for proof of a "militant homosexual agenda", and I provided one (Unless the term "Man-Boy Love" is somehow not homosexual in nature, in which case it is my profound misunderstanding of what that term means.

It's all about the sets Mark. While NAMBLA members are within the set of homosexuals,

No. They're not. It's a totally different preference that has nothing to do with being male or female. As long as we give credence to the idea that pedophilia has either a homosexual or heterosexual aspect, we're going down the wrong road. It's not about specific genitalia (because pedophiles will switch depending on availablility, even if they have a preference for one or the other), it's about undeveloped, hairless, breastless bodies of either sex. Take note that there are adult women who have clitorides larger than some young boys' penises.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[happythoughts 0]

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A couple of hundred posts into a thread where I initially asked for this well-known "Militant Homosexual Agenda" has so far resulted in this many answers:

Actually, the linkage between homosexuality and pedophilia has been discredited. There still may be an agenda, that just doesn't happen to be it.

On any issue, there is a "Militant blah-blah group" on the other side. There is militant pro-lifers and militant pro-abortionists. The term still stands, as it stands for every group.

[artistcalledian 0]

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Take note that there are adult women who have clitorides larger than some young boys' penises.

i know, i once found out the hard way

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[narcimund 0]

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No. They're not.

I believe what livendive is saying is that the specific set of pedophiles that comprise nambla happen to also be homosexual (and they also happen to be male.)

I wouldn't be surprised to find that's true for the most part.

All of us (except for Mark and also the rabid homophobes) seem to also agree that the fact that nambla members happen to be homosexual (and also happen to be male and eaters of bread and also whose bodies occupy space and have mass) is simply coincidental and of no consequence to this discussion any more.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[happythoughts 0]

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So here, according NAMBLA spokesmodel, David Thorstad:

The basic argument of the gay movement today boils down to the following: Homosexuals are born that way, and heterosexuals are born that way; therefore, homosexual liberation poses no threat to the status quo and dominance of hetersupremacy. This is the old "nature versus nurture" argument dressed up in new, accommodationist clothes.

The gay assimilationists want to become part of an existing, inequitable capitalist society, not change that society in any fundamental way. Their approach is inherently selfish, not altruistic. They seek minor adjustments in the status quo, not radical social change. They have been co-opted by the heterosupremacist power structure.

It doesn't sound to me as if the gay community has common cause with pedophiles. I also hear the sound of the toilet flushing on the militant gay agenda.

"It doesn't sound to me as if the gay community..."

Why? Because a member of NAMBLA said it ?

He is speaking for the entire gay community when he says, "The basic argument of the gay movement today boils down to the following..." ?

I don't he is in a position to do that.

His assertion that "Homosexuals are born that way, and heterosexuals are born that way" is also untrue.

Sexual identity can be innate.
Gender identity can also be confused at the point when it is being developed.
Sexual preferences can be alienated through traumatic events.

Using his statements as facts makes any conclusions groundless.

[narcimund 0]

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"It doesn't sound to me as if the gay community..."

Why? Because a member of NAMBLA said it ?

Nobody is claiming the nabla spokesman gets to speak for the gay community. He's speaking to the distance that HIS group recognizes between themselves and a large, separate community that some would like to call the same group.

It's like that mythical skydiving bank robber acknowledging that his skydiving hobby DOES NOT RELATE to his bank robbering.

But you knew all this already, didn't you?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[RhondaLea 4]

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"It doesn't sound to me as if the gay community..."

Why? Because a member of NAMBLA said it ?

He is speaking for the entire gay community when he says, "The basic argument of the gay movement today boils down to the following..." ?

I don't he is in a position to do that.

His assertion that "Homosexuals are born that way, and heterosexuals are born that way" is also untrue.

Sexual identity can be innate.
Gender identity can also be confused at the point when it is being developed.
Sexual preferences can be alienated through traumatic events.

Using his statements as facts makes any conclusions groundless.

"His assertion" is not his assertion. It is what he asserts is the belief of the gay community (and a good part of the scientific community that does research in that particular area).

He is also speaking generally about the reaction that NAMBLA has received from the gay community at large. He would know better than anyone what kind of support NAMBLA is getting, don't you think?

Look, I can't argue something when someone has taken what I wrote out of context and constructed an argument that I didn't make.

I stand by what I said.

Further, sexual identity is innate. It doesn't change as a result of traumatic events, but it is documented that very few of us fall into the two extremes of totally heterosexual or totally homosexual, so in the presence of a sexually traumatic event, we might decide to see if there is comfort to be found in a different configuration. For some of us, it's as simple as what I wrote earlier in one of these threads--I'd rather have sex with a smart woman than a stupid man. That doesn't mean that I've changed my sexuality, because I still have a much stronger attraction to men than to women. It's just that in my old age, I've gotten a little pickier.

As to confusion of gender identity, what exactly are you talking about, because I can't respond to a statement that vague. The phrase itself covers several different things, not all of which--and more likely none of which--have anything to do with homosexuality.

I'm tired right now, and I've left some holes. I'm sure you'll be right on them.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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No. They're not.

I believe what livendive is saying

Dave is usually smarter than I am. Given the chance to contradict him, what else could I do?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[happythoughts 0]

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Nobody is claiming the nabla spokesman gets to speak for the gay community.

He is being quoted as an expert on what the gay agenda is.

Actually, the problem is this. Initially, there was a linkage between homosexuality and NAMBLA. I discredit that.

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It doesn't sound to me as if the gay community has common cause with pedophiles. I also hear the sound of the toilet flushing on the militant gay agenda.

Just because there is not a relationship between the gay community and NAMBLA, does not mean that there is not an agenda. It just mean that NAMBLA is not part of it and it does relate to the "agenda" topic.

There isn't a relationship between the NRA and NAMBLA , but that doesn't mean that the NRA does not have a pro-gun agenda. Same logic.

[happythoughts 0]

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Further, sexual identity is innate. It doesn't change as a result of traumatic events, but it is documented that very few of us fall into the two extremes of totally heterosexual or totally homosexual, so in the presence of a sexually traumatic event, we might decide to see if there is comfort to be found in a different configuration.

I was refuting the argument that sexual preference is always established by nature. I refute the one-source argument. It can be changed by a variety of events.

Making a different sexual choice as a result of a traumatic event is exactly what I said. Is "finding comfort" a vague way of saying "having a non-heterosexual experience" ? The same thing, different words.

If it is a permanent choice, then the trauma has been the cause of a permanent sexual orientation choice. That was my original point.

That is what I said.
- Some people have an innate sexual preference.
- Some change it due to traumatic events (which you re-stated above).

I also mentioned gender confusion.

Some have a very confused idea of which sex that they identify with. That creates a confusion about which sex that they choose to have sex with.

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As to confusion of gender identity, what exactly are you talking about, because I can't respond to a statement that vague.

Definition of gender identity

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Gender identity is how a person sees himself or herself, whether masculine, feminine, or somewhere in-between. Gender role is the objective, public presentation in our culture as masculine, feminine, or mixed. For most people, gender identity is consistent with gender role...

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The phrase itself covers several different things, not all of which--and more likely none of which--have anything to do with homosexuality.

Gender Identity Disorder is a well defined psychological term. It is sometimes referrred to as Gender Dysphoria.

If a man believes himself to be a heterosexual woman, that is confusion.

There are homosexual men who see themselves as men who choose men. A Gender dysphoric male chooses homosexual sex because it is part of being a woman.

(edited for markup problem)

[Nightingale 0]

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Mark,,


THere was something in several posts here that I think you might have missed. I am cutting and pasting it here so people get the message


FUCKING CHILDREN IS NOT HETERO OR HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR.

Its call pedophilia and enpasses ANY transgression against a child by any adult. Far too many people in this country have first hand knowledge of what this means.

Very well put.

This is from a psychologist's Q and A, and I think he does a pretty good job of explaining... it's long, though.

Q: I've heard therapists say that a male adult who sexually abuses a boy isn't necessarily ‘homosexual.' This seems confusing: If he isn't homosexual, then why would he sexually molest boys, instead of girls?

This is a very good question, and there are several ways to respond to it. First, we need to clarify our definitions. When discussing sexual abuse and molestation of children, there's often conflict over terminology. One frequently quoted researchers on the topic of homosexuality and child molestation, Gregory Herek, a research psychologist at the University of California, defines pedophilia as "a psychosexual disorder characterized by a preference for prepubescent children as sexual partners, which may or may not be acted upon." He defines child sexual abuse as "actual sexual contact between an adult and someone who has not reached the legal age of consent." Not all pedophiles actually molest children, he points out. A pedophile may be attracted to children, but never actually engage in sexual contact with them. Quite often, pedophiles never develop a sexual orientation toward other adults.

Herek points out that child molestation and child sexual abuse refer to "actions," without implying any "particular psychological makeup or motive on the part of the perpetrator." In other words, not all incidents of child sexual abuse are perpetrated by pedophiles. Pedophilia can be viewed as a kind of sexual fetish, wherein the person requires the mental image of a child--not necessarily a flesh-and-blood child--to achieve sexual gratification. Rarely does a pedophile experience sexual desire for adults of either gender. They usually don't identify as homosexual–the majority identify as heterosexual, even those who abuse children of the same gender They are sexually aroused by youth, not by gender. In contrast, child molesters often exert power and control over children in an effort to dominate them. They do experience sexual desire for adults, but molest children episodically, for reasons apart from sexual desire, much as rapists enjoy power, violence and controlling their humiliated victims. Indeed, research supports that a child molester isn't any more likely to be homosexual than heterosexual.

In fact, some research shows that for pedophiles, the gender of the child is immaterial. Accessibility is more the factor in who a pedophile abuses. This may explain the high incidence of children molested in church communities and fraternal organizations, where the pedophile may more easily have access to children. In these situations, an adult male is trusted by those around him, including children and their families. Males are often given access to boys to mentor, teach, coach and advise. Therefore, a male pedophile may have easier access to a male child. In trying to make sense of an adult male's sexually abusing a male child, many of us mislabel it as an act of homosexuality, which it isn't.

Feminists have argued for years that rape is not a sex act–it is an act of violence using sex as a weapon. In the same way, a pedophile abusing a child of the same sex is not perpetrating a homosexual act, but an act of violence and exploitation using sexuality. There is a world of difference between these two things, but it requires a subtle understanding of the inner motivation of the abuser.

To call child molestation of a boy by a man "homosexual” or of a girl by a man "heterosexual" is to misunderstand pedophilia. No true pedophile is attracted to adults, so neither homosexuality nor heterosexuality applies. Accordingly, Herek suggests calling men's sexual abuse of boys "male-male molestation" and men's abuse of girls, "male-female molestation."

Interestingly, Anna C. Salter writes, in “Predators, Pedophiles, Rapists and other Sex Offenders”, that when a man molests little girls, we call him a "pedophile" and not a "heterosexual." Of course, when a man molests little boys, people say outright, or mutter under their breath, "homosexual. Herek writes that because of our society's aversion to male homosexuality, and the attempts made by some to represent gay men as a danger to "family values," many in our society immediately think of male-male molestation as homosexuality. He compares this with the time when African Americans were often falsely accused of raping white women, and when medieval Jews were accused of murdering Christian babies in ritual sacrifices. Both are examples of how mainstream society eagerly jumped to conclusions to that justified discrimination and violence against these minorities. Today, gays face the same kind of prejudice. Most recently, we've seen gay men unfairly turned out of the Boy Scouts of America on the basis of this myth that gay men are likely to be child molesters. Keeping gays out of scouting won't protect boys from pedophiles.

In reality, abuse of boys by gay pedophiles is rare, and the abuse of girls by lesbians is rarer still. Nicholas Groth is a noted authority on this topic. In a 1982 study by Grot, he asks, "Are homosexual adults in general sexually attracted to children, and are pre-adolescent children at greater risk of molestation from homosexual adults than from heterosexual adults? There is no reason to believe so. The research to date all points to there being no significant relationship between a homosexual lifestyle and child molestation. There appears to be practically no reportage of sexual molestation of girls by lesbian adults, and the adult male who sexually molests young boys is not likely to be homosexual." Herek writes, similarly, that abuse of boys by gay men is rare; and that the abuse of girls by lesbians is rarer still.

The topic of female-female molestation continues to be largely ignored. There are few books on female sex offenders, particularly about mothers sexually abusing their daughters. I can find no books on mothers who sexually abuse their sons. There is one handbook by Hani Miletski, M.S.W., entitled, “Mother-Son Incest: The Unthinkable Taboo.” Unthinkable is an appropriate word—so much so that there is nothing else in the literature on this topic, even though female pedophiles and female child molesters certainly exist.

We know so much more than we did historically and yet have a long way to go. We can understand child sexual abuse further when people's bias and prejudice are removed and the evidence is empirical and scientific.

Joe Kort MA, MSW, ACSW

[SudsyFist 0]

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It's a tale without an eeeeeeeeeeeeend
But the end is there for all to see...

...And if the end weren't so real
Coming round and round again on me...

I guess it's all about my priiiiiiiiide
I want to be there at the kill...

[RhondaLea 4]

Okay. I'm awake now.

Gender Identity Disorder has nothing to do with this discussion. You're broadening the discussion in a way that makes it a totally different discusssion, and we are not talking about people with a mental disorder in this thread.

As for someone who changes his/her behavior--any behavior, not just sexual--because of a traumatic event, it's the same as above. Otherwise we're going to end up discussing all the weird things people do in response to traumatic events.

We're not talking about people with mental disorders in this thread, and all you're doing is making the water very muddy.

Just as there are heterosexuals with mental problems, so are there homosexuals with mental problems, and those problems run the gamut. But that's not what we're talking about here.

A situational change of the sex one chooses for intimate relations is not a change in sexual orientation, so let's just nip this in the bud right now.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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It's a tale without an eeeeeeeeeeeeend
But the end is there for all to see...

...And if the end weren't so real
Coming round and round again on me...

I guess it's all about my priiiiiiiiide
I want to be there at the kill...

I don't think so, Steve. The whole thing is now beginning to spiral out of control with this entre into the thread about confused sexual identity which has nothing to do with hetero- or homosexuality.

And I'm already bored with this new digression.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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This is from a psychologist's Q and A, and I think he does a pretty good job of explaining... it's long, though.

[...]

Joe Kort MA, MSW, ACSW

I posted the link to Kort upthread, Kris, along with a couple of relevant quotes from that essay. It didn't help any. For some people...ah, well...never mind.

Some minds are just like a double malfunction.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb