Dateline NBC story

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WHEW!
I was really afraid of what might have resulted from that!

really? I can't understand why! (snicker, snicker)

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[AggieDave 6]

Swing and a miss there.

You're saying the ends justify the means. I say the means need to stay in the boundry of ethical behavior even if the end was just. I do not have any sympathy for those that prey on children or any other helpless person regardless of age for that matter, BUT we have our laws for a reason and they need to be followed. Slander is not ethical. Creating slander for your own personal and professional gain is not ethical. Period.

There are task forces setup to catch these criminals by trained LEOs from different agencies. The media does not have to become self righteous and decided that with no proper training and barely an education that enables their ability to properly use grammer they are now able to enforce the law while publicly destroying people's lives. If they (the media) felt like the persons were truely guilty, why weren't the tapes simply given over to the proper authorities to be used as evidence? Why wasn't the law involved at some point to properly execute the law upon those that deserve it? I'll tell you why. Its because the media does not care about what is ethical, what is lawful or what is just. They only care about their personal ratings and elevating their career. Its unfortunate that you can not see that and that you do not understand these things.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Lindercles 0]

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Well, I'm thinking that "innocent people" would be a lot harder to "trap." I'm gonna' need a hypothetical to continue this. These guys are hardly being trapped. Think about it, a KID, an adult, you know what is "right" and what is "wrong."

Ok, here's a hypothetical. McCarthyism.

And nobody has argued what is right and wrong with respect to pedophilia, only with repect to the media's role.

[flyinghonu 0]

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Creating slander for your own personal and professional gain is not ethical. Period.

You TRULY think it's the media creating slander rather than the actual acts of these people actually preying on kids? I just have to disagree. No one lured these people to the internet to seek children to "meet." They did it of their own free will as they actually "met up" with these children of their own free will...they media did not force or "create" this.

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If they (the media) felt like the persons were truely guilty, why weren't the tapes simply given over to the proper authorities to be used as evidence?

Remember Lacy Peterson, the interview of good ole' Scott on GMA was used as evidence in the trial to convict of him of murder? When law enforcement actually gets off their asses and catches up with these folks, the tapes are evidence and all likelihood will be turned over if not subpoenaed as evidence. Fuck what the media wants - the tapes are evidence and will be used as such.

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Its unfortunate that you can not see that and that you do not understand these things.

I, too, am sorry we disagree but we just see things differently due to our life experiences and opinions...in risk of this being moved to the ever so hated SC, I leave the last reply for you. But I will be watching

"Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix

[AggieDave 6]

Due to my anger I have deleted my posts. I can wrap up my thoughts simply here.

I would have hoped that the media would have had the morals and ethics to leave the law enforcement to the proper agencies, but if they couldn't leave that as such, I would have hoped that they would have turned their findings over to the proper agency upon recognition of an illegal act. Unfortunately I doubt this has happened. Hopefully in the future the media will act as such.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[flyinghonu 0]

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Well, I'm thinking that "innocent people" would be a lot harder to "trap." I'm gonna' need a hypothetical to continue this. These guys are hardly being trapped. Think about it, a KID, an adult, you know what is "right" and what is "wrong."

Ok, here's a hypothetical. McCarthyism.

Um....completely different in my opinion or are you trying to tie some kind of link to what Dateline did and the whole "slippery slope" dealio. IMO, totally different...... Japanese citizens being considered as spys and placed in prison camps w/in US boundaries vs. undercover footage of unforced adults preying on children. I have never said that even these "perps." don't deserve their day in court. Give it to em', show the footage, listen for the explanation, give em' a good attorney and let a jury at em'. Justice will be served.....

"Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix

[Lindercles 0]

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Um....completely different in my opinion or are you trying to tie some kind of link to what Dateline did and the whole "slippery slope" dealio. IMO, totally different...... Japanese citizens being considered as spys and placed in prison camps w/in US boundaries vs. undercover footage of unforced adults preying on children. I have never said that even these "perps." don't deserve their day in court. Give it to em', show the footage, listen for the explanation, give em' a good attorney and let a jury at em'. Justice will be served.....

But you didn't ask for a hypothetical which could be compared to what actually happened, you asked for a hypothetical about how the same thing could happen to innocent people. I was not comparing the trapping of pedophiles to the imprisonment of Japanese, I was comparing the possible future persecution of innocent people to the proven past persecution of innocent people.

[Mickochet 0]

McCarthyism has nothing to do with imprisonment of Japanese.

If you never fall down you aren't trying hard enough.

[RhondaLea 4]

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They waited for someone to make the first move online, at which point they played (aggressively, not passively) along and the discussions got real dirty.

I don't know how to vote. My gut instinct is that pedophiles should be drawn and quartered, so public humiliation is relatively mild comparatively speaking.

On the other hand, there are people with a desire for children who do not succumb to that temptation, but satisfy their needs in other ways.

What I wonder is how many of these guys would actually have sought out a real-life encounter with a child in the absence of aggressive cooperation. I'm not saying that giving into it is right, but I am saying that these guys were pushed over the edge.

It may be that some of them are active pedophiles, but how likely is that, really?

I guess what I think is that if someone is laboring under a compulsion like this one, throwing temptation in his path is none too cool.

But on the other hand, you have the issue of these guys going online for the purpose of having cyber encounters with children, so maybe that's more than enough to with which to damn their behavior and expose them to public shame.

I understand your question about the media becoming involved in the administration of justice, but if we don't protect our children in every way possible, we're leaving the door open to create another generation of pedophiles. For people who don't have any internal restraints, the threat of exposure may be enough to prevent translating thoughts into deeds, in which case, this serves as an object lesson.

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These guys need mental help, or perhaps jail time...

In the case of pedophiles, mental help doesn't help, and jail time serves only to keep them away from kids (which is a good thing). No one has yet figured out how to rewire the proclivities of a child molester.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rwieder 0]

What Dateline did was legal. They are not law enforcement so it was not entrapment. Some very perverted assholes got outed as a result. Fuck em. They deserve anything and everthing they get. I'm not one for vigilante justice, but in any of these cases, if that were my son, or grandson i would have no qualms about shooting the perp dead, all the way dead. I'm talking between the eyes, and dunping the clip afterwards, maybe even a reload (or 2) for good measure. That way they can skip jail and go straight to hell where they will be the ones getting abused.

Obviously this topic raises the hair on the back of my kneck and makes me angry. No tolerance should be given to child molesters, they deserve cruel and violent deaths and maybe even a little torture before they cross over to the other side.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[RhondaLea 4]

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Obviously this topic raises the hair on the back of my kneck and makes me angry. No tolerance should be given to child molesters, they deserve cruel and violent deaths and maybe even a little torture before they cross over to the other side.

I think I said something above about my gut instinct. I've well nigh given up writing about personal experience, because some of the folks around here mistake illustration for an invitation to address my experience and me instead of the issue. But I will say this much: pedophiles don't come from nowhere. You don't find pedophiles who were not first victims of pedophiles. Not all those who are molested as children grow up to be molesters (generally, male) or perpetual sexual victims (generally, female), but those who do grow up to be either of these were once child victims of another grown up victim.

I know it's hard to have compassion for someone who hurts children, but you have to be mindful of how that person got to be where he is.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[freethefly 6]

Anyone who would harm a child, sick in the head or not, should be taken out of society and put away where they can no longer harm anyones kids. Maybe not prison, but a mental facility where they can be studied and something could learned of what makes them the way they are. Kudos to Dateline for a job well done

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[rwieder 0]

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I know it's hard to have compassion for someone who hurts children, but you have to be mindful of how that person got to be where he is.

Perhaps your right RL. I just know how i'd react to someone who did something like this to one of my babies.

I doubt anyone would really care what happened to any one of those guys in that news story.

I bet i know what John Walsh would do, i'd give him a hand.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[PLFXpert 0]

I saw it & was disgusted.

Your complaint about lack of disclosure, I can't say whether I know to be true or not, b/c it didn't occur to me after seeing the report to research it.

But, if a woman who was alledgedly raped must loose her anonymity in order to seek justice, than why should that rule change for sexual predetors of minors?

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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For people who don't have any internal restraints, the threat of exposure may be enough to prevent translating thoughts into deeds, in which case, this serves as an object lesson

Enough studies have concluded this, for me to agree, that public humiliation is a better deterence than jail time, etc. For whatever reason, the thought of imprisonment doesn't scare away a lot of these people, but the thought of them being brought into the public eye, does. It's all about secrecy. People don't like to be judged by their peers.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[RhondaLea 4]

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I know it's hard to have compassion for someone who hurts children, but you have to be mindful of how that person got to be where he is.

Perhaps your right RL. I just know how i'd react to someone who did something like this to one of my babies.

Me too.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[PLFXpert 0]

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But I will say this much: pedophiles don't come from nowhere. You don't find pedophiles who were not first victims of pedophiles. Not all those who are molested as children grow up to be molesters (generally, male) or perpetual sexual victims (generally, female), but those who do grow up to be either of these were once child victims of another grown up victim.

I know it's hard to have compassion for someone who hurts children, but you have to be mindful of how that person got to be where he is.

Exactly.

I read quite a few sociological and psychological studies on this topic, by choice, in college for papers. I have a natural tendency to want to understand the reasons behind people's actions, rather than judge them for it. Though I can definitely be judgemental. I just try very hard not to be.

Anywho...I read one man's story in particular. Forgive me for not having a link or reference to give as it was a couple years ago. But, it was a reputable journal and told of one of the first men to get to a point in a new program to rehabilitate these predators. Without going into that detail, what struck me was why he chose "young girls, between ages 6 and 8". It was because when he was only 10, his father (parents divorced) would come and pick up him and his 6 year-old sister for the weekend. He'd take them back to his place where he (the father) and friends would molest the two kids. His only comfort through this horrific experience was having his sister right there next to him and knowning he wasn't alone in this awful situation.

His reason for molesting young girls, now that he's all grown-up, is it brings him that same comfort he used to feel by having the company of his younger sister.

It's twisted, and sad, but that type of experience as a young child is obviously EXTREMELY traumatizing and this particular man's way of coping is to try and find that one and only solace he knew as a child.

I'm disgusted, though, with the laws regarding sexual predators, especially of minors. They are not nearly strict enough, in my opinion. But that arguement is probably for another forum.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[PLFXpert 0]

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I just know how i'd react to someone who did something like this to one of my babies.

I dont' think anyone would blame you, either. It's a funny (not ha-ha) thing about this topic.

Paint me in a corner, but my color comes back.

[tdog 0]

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But, if a woman who was alledgedly raped must loose her anonymity in order to seek justice, than why should that rule change for sexual predetors of minors?

Because they will loose their anonymity in the justice system, just like the woman who gets raped...

I am not saying hide anything, I am saying, have the police there to arrest them on the spot and read them their rights... Or, hide their identity until actual charges are filed.

Let the real justice system do it's thing...

It was a great story that needed to be told... But the way it was told???

[jumper03 0]

I think one thing that some people are forgetting in replying to this is exactly what the Dateline story was about. Yes, it was about sexual predators, but the story featured volunteers who man a web site called perverted-justice.com. They go into chat rooms posing as kids. They NEVER make the first contact, adults contact them and end up sending them pornographic pics, etc. If the adult asks for a meeting, the volunteers agree, then ask them to bring beer, condoms what have you - a way to prove intent. The volunteers log all of the conversations and turn everything over to the police. And they have a pretty high conviction rate when these cases go to trial.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[gmanpilot 0]

This is a great thread with some important issues.

The report stated that they gave copies of the tapes to the subject's employer, LE authorities, and the DA. Contrary to AggieDave's assertion, the tapes will probably be admissable as evidence because those involved were reportedly not acting as "agents of the government". The reporter did not portray himself as a LEO, he simply did not disclose his identity, and he is not obligated to do so. The subject has no Miranda protection in this instance, and he was free to leave at any time.

As far as media sensationalism goes, I'd say documenting a sexual predator is the definition of sensational. The media is too often guilty of creating sensationalism for ratings intstead of simply documenting news or events, however, I think it's a legitimate function of the press to shine a bright light on the dark underbelly of society.

I thought it was a responsible and restrained piece of investigative journalism about truly disgusting and unrestrained internet predators who are loose on the street.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[RhondaLea 4]

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His reason for molesting young girls, now that he's all grown-up, is it brings him that same comfort he used to feel by having the company of his younger sister.

This is his stated reason, and it may well be part of what he feels.

However, the reason that male victims of child abuse become molesters themselves appears to be that it gives them a sense of mastery over the situation. They repeat the abuse again and again in an effort to overcome what was done to them. Women are less likely to do this because women are socialized differently; they tend to become perpetual victims instead.

Sex crimes are shows of superior power, and they have much less to do with sexual lust than the desire for control.

And this is where I get stuck with the whole mess, because there are people in this world with totally fucked psyches who still manage to keep a rein on it. So I have to ask myself what makes them different from those who don't.

Pedophiles are one of the world's thorniest problems for me. I understand the roots of the problem, I well know how deep the injury that made them goes. I even understand why they shut off their empathy with respect to their victims. But all the reasons for what and why they are aren't enough to make me accept that they then go out and perpetuate the cycle.

Celibacy may not be fun, but if the only thing that turns one on is an innocent child, I think it's the only answer. It's one thing to have a proclivity, but quite another to indulge it to the detriment of someone else.

And a person who is unable to rein himself in probably deserves whatever he gets, in spite of his history.

What concerns me about this television drama is that some of these men may have been keeping a grip on it right up to the point that they were faced with overwhelming temptation. Say what you will, but if you don't realize the 25-year old hot female you're having wild cybersex with is in reality a 56-year old fat man in need of a bath, you need to think again. The point is that cybersex isn't real, it's fantasy and roleplaying, and if parents were doing their job (monitoring usage and putting the appropriate controls in place), then no children would be getting hurt online.

If a pedophile spends his time looking at 18+ girls and boys who are portrayed to be 13-year olds, is anyone being hurt? If that same pedophile is having an online conversation with an adult pretending to be a child, is anyone being hurt? The internet has made a lot possible. If you can't take the sickness out of a person, at least that person has a relatively harmless outlet for the sickness.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. It's a problem with which I have far too intimate an acquaintance to be entirely rational. My gut says that they should be cut off from society, but my head says that most of them are perfectly normal except for this one thing, and they do a lot of good in the world otherwise.

I'll be interested to know if that Rabbi has ever actually touched a child.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[RhondaLea 4]

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I think one thing that some people are forgetting in replying to this is exactly what the Dateline story was about. Yes, it was about sexual predators, but the story featured volunteers who man a web site called perverted-justice.com. They go into chat rooms posing as kids. They NEVER make the first contact, adults contact them and end up sending them pornographic pics, etc. If the adult asks for a meeting, the volunteers agree, then ask them to bring beer, condoms what have you - a way to prove intent. The volunteers log all of the conversations and turn everything over to the police. And they have a pretty high conviction rate when these cases go to trial.

I went and read one of the chat logs. Then another one.

The first guy skirted the edge, but there wasn't anything even close to overtly sexual, and "the child" was really egging him on.

The second guy was more out there, but the "the child" really led him down the garden path. Someone needs to spank "the child."

The most telling part of it all for me is that when it came time for both of them to actually make the meeting, they each backed away from it with a really lame excuse. In these cases, it looks to me like this group did nothing more than humiliate a guy who was never going to do anything anyway.

Is this an answer to the problem?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rwieder 0]

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I'll be interested to know if that Rabbi has ever actually touched a child.

You know damn well he more than likely has. I hope he burns in hell.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[shropshire 0]

The current Poll result 50-50 is a bit scarey...... So, Due Process (as I think that you call it in the States) only applies to you? And it's O.K to have trial by media or 21st century vigelanitism(?) for everyone else.....Nice set of standards people.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome