Schwarzenegger denies Williams clemency plea

[RhondaLea 4]

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The point is, it's not subjective. The criteria are objective.

By whose absolute measure? The Earth as the center of the universe was considered quite objective at its time. And psychology is a far less exact science than physics or astronomy.

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I am saying that sociopaths are a blight on humanity, and they need to be eradicated.

The same was said about the Jews. And the Armenians. And the Tutsis.

I'm sorry for whatever you went through in life to which you reacted with such strong feelings against other human beings, RL. I truly hope you can heal and be free once and for all from those heavy, confining shackles.

I've answered this in a way already. I don't understand how sociopathy equates to racial, ethnic, sexual or other differences between groups of human beings.

I am talking about the kind of person who lacks empathy for any human being. This crosses all racial and ethnic barriers, although white males do seem to have a large share of the market.

I don't have strong feelings against any other human beings except those that have no qualms at all about doing harm to others simply because it is to their benefit, or worse yet, because they feel like it.

Of all the prejudices it is possible to have, it would seem to be a rational one, based on good sense and a sense of self-preservation.

Psychiatry may not be an exact science but the product of the sociopath is most definitely quantifiable in terms of the carnage they leave behind.

rl

P.S. I'm not really very appreciative of the condescension. Just so you know.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[SudsyFist 0]

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P.S. I'm not really very appreciative of the condescension. Just so you know.

No condescension, express or implied. EDIT: I apologize for making you feel as such. I may be a smartass 99.99999% of the time, but I've my moments of sincerity. My previous post on this thread being one of them.

And on that note, I'll step out now. I hope you have a pleasant rest of evening.

[RhondaLea 4]

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I still don't necessarily want people like him dead. Instead I'm pretty much indifferent to what happens to him.

As long as he lives, there exists the potential for him to do harm. My cost/benefit analysis says his life is not worth taking that chance.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[cruzit 0]

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Hell, it's the argument that I use, and I haven't heard anybody reply that the execution is justified, except for, "You'd let a hundred murderers live instead of killing one innocent?" I'd just say,"Yep. The benefit of the punishment is far outweighed by the horror of the situation wherein an innocent person is killed."

I've worked in corrections for 15 years. On the whole, I agree that killing even one innocent is wrong.

And yet....I have no problem with inmate Williams receiving the death penalty. This isn't a case where there is even a shadow of a doubt. His supposed good deeds look to me to be a calculated manipulative tactic to gain the sympathy of some individuals who are more...shall we say naive about how the average thug thinks.

So in 1993 after 20 years of poor institutional adjustment...Williams figures out he may be getting close to the end of his appeals and starts to manipulate the public by stating he is now "against violence." Bullshit...same thing happens every day at my facility. Inmates getting close to the end of their sentence decide to clean up their act the last year or so in order to look better to staff when consideration for half-way house placement happens.

I've no doubt he was still had mucho stroke with the Crips. Assuredly he was running the the Crips inside the joint. Williams and his ilk have caused, and continue to cause, more harm than most of you can ever fathom. William's legacy is one of murder and terror. For every child who stepped away from violence because of some book he wrote, 1,000 have died or will die as a result of the gang he started.

So....while I don't ever want to think an innocent may die....I am comforted to know at least in this case, justice....yes, I said Justice...was served.

[Lindsey 0]

Many families of victims have asked prosecutors not to seek the death penalty, mainly because if the accused gets life in prison, the legal drama ends there, or typically after one or two appeals. With the death penalty, they go through hearing after hearing and appeal after appeal and never really get the chance to move on until decades later.

Of course I'm aware of that. I doubt that any of us thinks that ALL families of people murdered want to see the murderer put to death. My thought is that so many people say that revenge has no place in the legal system. I don't really see that revenge is a good word for the purpose that execution of a murderer may serve for others. I don't see why their benefit is of no consequence when making decisions about carrying out a sentence (or sentencing a person in the first place).

I've had a close friend murdered, along with her husband, child, in-laws, neices and nephews. Their killer was executed. I was indifferent, but interested, in his execution. I don't know what purpose it served for Renata's mother either, but knowing her I don't think she would feel the need for revenge....but she might be glad that he's not lingering in a prison somewhere while her daughter and grandson are dead because of him.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pajarito 0]

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Gov.Schwarznegger denied the clemency plea for Stanley "Tookie" Williams. He's scheduled to be executed at 12:01 am tonight.

Well....
He is "The Terminator."

[Botellines 0]

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To say that I have a prejudice against sociopaths, however, is entirely accurate. If you want to liken that to racial and sexual prejudices, you can feel free to do so, but it doesn't make much sense to me. The latter is not rational. The former is a matter of self-preservation. Niggers and fags [sic] aren't hurting anyone by the mere fact of their existence. Sociopaths hurt everyone they touch.

I wouldn´t linken your prejudices to racial or sexual prejudices, although they are prejudices none the less. Unless anyone can prove that being a sociopath is an entirely free choice, and not that they have something wired up incorrec tly in the head (like schizofrenia), we muct treat them as mentally handicaped.
I am all for punishing them if they break the law, but not just because they are mentally ill. If we did that we should get rid of schizofrenics, bi-polars, etc, for the risk they represent to society and taken to the extreme Down syndromes and autists for not being productive.

[artistcalledian 0]

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we should get rid of schizofrenics, bi-polars, etc, for the risk they represent to society and taken to the extreme Down syndromes and autists for not being productive.

seems fair to me, we need to stop fannying around with the rubbish in life and get rid of them

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[RhondaLea 4]

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I wouldn´t linken your prejudices to racial or sexual prejudices, although they are prejudices none the less. Unless anyone can prove that being a sociopath is an entirely free choice, and not that they have something wired up incorrec tly in the head (like schizofrenia), we muct treat them as mentally handicaped.

I never thought I'd see the day that an aversion to sociopaths is considered a prejudice in the pejorative way the word is commonly used. But I can live with it.

One of the not-so-small differences between a personality disorder and a mental illness is that someone with the former does know the difference between right and wrong. Someone in the midst of a psychotic episode is in an entirely different subjective reality, and has no clue.

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I am all for punishing them if they break the law, but not just because they are mentally ill. If we did that we should get rid of schizofrenics, bi-polars, etc, for the risk they represent to society and taken to the extreme Down syndromes and autists for not being productive.

You're on a very slippery slope right here. You've taken my aversion to those who intentionally do harm to others and turned it into a case for getting rid of anyone who does not fit a very narrow definition of "normal." If you want to get rid of the mentally ill and the genetically "defective," I don't want to be involved.

The river of normal is very wide, but a sociopath stands well away from the banks of that river.

For the sake of clarity, this is what I'm talking about when I say "sociopath":

Psychopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder: A Case of Diagnostic Confusion

The article is long, but it distinguishes between the DSM criteria of Anti-Social Personality Disorder. (I know and love a lot of people who could very well get a diagnosis using the DSM standards, and I don't expect them to go on a killing rampage any time soon.) The PCL-R criteria, which defines the kind of person I'm speaking of when I use the word "sociopath," can be found here:

Diagnostic criteria (PCL-R test)

In contemporary research and clinical practice, psychopathy is most commonly assessed with the Hare Psychopathy Checklist- Revised (PCL-R), which is a clinical rating scale with 20 items. Each of the items in the PCL-R is scored on a three-point scale according to specific criteria through file information and a semi-structured interview. The items are as follows:

Factor 1: Aggressive narcissism

Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose sense of self-worth
Pathological lying
Cunning/manipulative
Lack of remorse or guilt
Shallow affect
Callous/lack of empathy
Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

Factor 2: Socially deviant lifestyle

Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
Parasitic lifestyle
Poor behavioral controls
Early behavioral problems
Lack of realistic, long-term goals
Impulsivity
Irresponsibility
Juvenile delinquency
Revocation of conditional release
Continual acceptance antisocial behaviour

Traits not correlated with either factor

Promiscuous sexual behavior
Many short-term marital relationships
Criminal versatility

Score 0 if the trait is absent, 1 if it is possibly or partially present and 2 if it is present. The item scores are summed to yield a total score ranging from 0 to 40 which is then considered to reflect the degree to which they resemble the prototypical psychopath. A score higher than 30 supports a diagnosis of psychopathy. Forensic studies of prison populations have reported average scores of around 22 on PCL-R; control "normal" populations show an average score of around 5.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Falko 0]

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If a child grows up to be less than human, why waste resources to maintain an existence that is damaging to everything and everyone he touches?

I thought ideas like that had been overcome 60 years ago, at least in the western world?
The whole "less than human" argumentation is disgusting, no matter how much you try to make it sound politically correct.

Put aside the nice-wording-gift-wrap and let's look at the underlying principle, which is:
There are humans... and there are "non"-humans.

From 1933-1945 they were called "Untermenschen" here in Germany. Now how anyone in their right mind nowadays can still try to draw a line between humans and "non-humans" is beyond me.

Sociopaths are as much humans as you and I. Now accepting that as an axiom and continuing to develop our society from there is where the real challenge is! "Getting rid of all the low lifers" is no solution. It was called "die Endlösung".

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What defines humanity? The ability to empathize with one's fellow man.

You say it, same post, different line... but have you tried it?

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[RhondaLea 4]

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If a child grows up to be less than human, why waste resources to maintain an existence that is damaging to everything and everyone he touches?

I thought ideas like that had been overcome 60 years ago, at least in the western world?
The whole "less than human" argumentation is disgusting, no matter how much you try to make it sound politically correct.

Put aside the nice-wording-gift-wrap and let's look at the underlying principle, which is:
There are humans... and there are "non"-humans.

From 1933-1945 they were called "Untermenschen" here in Germany. Now how anyone in their right mind nowadays can still try to draw a line between humans and "non-humans" is beyond me.

Sociopaths are as much humans as you and I. Now accepting that as an axiom and continuing to develop our society from there is where the real challenge is! "Getting rid of all the low lifers" is no solution. It was called "die Endlösung".

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What defines humanity? The ability to empathize with one's fellow man.

You say it, same post, different line... but have you tried it?

Yes. I've tried it. I've tried empathizing with the unempathic all my life. I had to learn--in therapy--how not to.

History is littered with the remains of those who empathize with sociopaths. Nothing good has ever come of it, except more carnage.

I'm boggled by those who want to equate sociopaths with the people they have tortured down through the years. You and others in this forum have made a leap from those who have not a care in the world for the value of individuals to those groups of people who have been singled out for harassment and worse because of skin color, ethnic origin, sexual preference or some other totally inconsequential reason.

I don't get that at all. I don't see any commonality between Tookie Williams, for example, and a generic Jew, lesbian, black man or .

To each his own.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[kallend 2,150]

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Hell, it's the argument that I use, and I haven't heard anybody reply that the execution is justified, except for, "You'd let a hundred murderers live instead of killing one innocent?" I'd just say,"Yep. The benefit of the punishment is far outweighed by the horror of the situation wherein an innocent person is killed."

I've worked in corrections for 15 years. On the whole, I agree that killing even one innocent is wrong.

And yet....I have no problem with inmate Williams receiving the death penalty. This isn't a case where there is even a shadow of a doubt.

Are you saying that the amount of doubt should determine the punishment?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Falko 0]

You didn't adress the distinction between "humans" and "non-humans". Quite the opposite, you tried to draw the line even more.

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History is littered with the remains of those who empathize with sociopaths. Nothing good has ever come of it, except more carnage.

Being empathic is one thing, allowing someone to do damage is another.

From what you write it seems to me (correct me there) that because you allowed a "sociopath" (whatever that word defines) to damage you is reason for you to not be empathic with "sociopaths" any more. Even going a step further and denying them being humans.

Tell me where the difference is between a so-called "sociopath" not being able to regard another fellow human as a human, and a "human" (like you) not being able to regard a so-called "sociopath" as a human.
Is it because both cannot, or because they could but won't? I don't know and I think noone really knows where to draw the line where free will ends and compulsive behaviour starts.

But, since you're claiming that you're human and "they" are not, I think you should step up to your own standard and BE human by regarding your fellow human beings, including those of "inferior" mental state as such: a human, with a right to live.


edit: f****ng grammar... this gives me a headache.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[TomAiello 26]

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...a man who has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize...

Nomination for a Nobel Peace Prize is hardly a sign of virtue.

Adolph Hitler was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1939 (source: Nobel Nomination Database).

Joseph Stalin was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize twice, in 1945 and 1948 (source: Nobel Nomination Database).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[artistcalledian 0]

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Score 0 if the trait is absent, 1 if it is possibly or partially present and 2 if it is present. The item scores are summed to yield a total score ranging from 0 to 40 which is then considered to reflect the degree to which they resemble the prototypical psychopath. A score higher than 30 supports a diagnosis of psychopathy. Forensic studies of prison populations have reported average scores of around 22 on PCL-R; control "normal" populations show an average score of around 5.

34 out of 36 for me

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[RhondaLea 4]

Ted Bundy did not have an inferior mental state. He was brilliant. Most of those people who fit into the very narrow niche I'm describing are quite bright.

Here's a plain language description of the sort of person I'm talking about:

Psychopaths are neither sociopaths nor psychotics but rather are people who are well aware of the difference between right and wrong and ignore the distinction. Additionally, they are egocentric and have no feelings of empathy, guilt or remorse. They view others as potential victims, and they leave a trail of unhappiness behind them in those who have succumbed to their deceitful manipulations.

I have been using the word "sociopath" to describe what Robert Hare describes as a "psychopath." I'm not going to argue the semantics; it's not about the label you apply, but about the action these people take. I'm talking about the sort of person who has no humanity. And if one has no humanity, one is not human.

I've defined my terms. If you want to feel empathy for the persons described above, feel free. I think it's misplaced and wasted, so I'm saving my care and concern for their victims.

And just because you made it personal, know that I got off pretty lightly, but there are many others damaged beyond repair by such people.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[squirrel 0]

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I am disgusted with California and the governor.

good, stay away. traffic is bad enough

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[TomAiello 26]

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I can accept the death penalty for an unrepentant schemer/killer (e.g. Osama Bin Laden, Tookie Williams at the time of his conviction). But if they have progressed past that point, their existence includes that transgression, but is more than that.

Here's a weird twist:

If I were Tookie, and I had honestly reformed, I think that part of my reformed character would feel that I ought to die as a final atonement for my crimes.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[RhondaLea 4]

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34 out of 36 for me

Y'know, Ian, I don't like you. No surprise there, right? With that said, and even though I have an opinion about your psyche, I think that there is a good reason why this test must be professionally and carefully administered to obtain a valid diagnosis.

It is very unlikely that you are a psychopath.

All personality disorders reflect normal human behaviors, magnified and twisted out of proportion. We're all going to exhibit some, if not nearly all, of these traits at different times. It is when these traits, in a cluster, become an ongoing, pervasive pattern of behavior that a diagnosis of this sort is made.

So I'm sorry to disappoint you. But I think your self-administration of the test is probably not all that accurate.

Let's try not to muddy the waters any more than they already are, eh?

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Falko 0]

You still haven't adressed my core question, all you do is defining your distinction of humans vs non-humans. But I'll rest my case as we're going in circles anyway.

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I'm talking about the sort of person who has no humanity. And if one has no humanity, one is not human.

That's the conclusion I don't agree with. Everyone is human when they were born from a human mother. Humanity is an axiom for me, for you it's a variable in an equation. Big difference.
Let's agree to disagree.

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I've defined my terms. If you want to feel empathy for the persons described above, feel free. I think it's misplaced and wasted, so I'm saving my care and concern for their victims.

Trying to play the "pick your side, I've picked mine" card? Implying that I don't have compassion with the victims? Forget it...

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And just because you made it personal, know that I got off pretty lightly, but there are many others damaged beyond repair by such people.

Well it was you who took it to the personal level (telling about your own experience with sociopaths 2 posts up), I only referenced it. If you don't want this discussion to include personal experiences, just leave them out of your posts. I have my share of experience with weird/twisted/sick people too, but it has nothing to do with this thread and I wouldn't share it anyway.

blue skies, I'm outta here.

Ich betrachte die Religion als Krankheit, als Quelle unnennbaren Elends für die menschliche Rasse.
(Bertrand Russell, engl. Philosoph, 1872-1970)

[EricTheRed 0]

Not a reply specifically to you Rhonda, but to the last post on the thread.

One thing that I think everyone tends to overlook in all of their opposition to the death penalty is the simple fact that everyone dies. No one gets out alive.

Some people IMHO deserve to exit sooner than others. Individuals that choose to bring misery and death to others I think are at the top of the list for an early exit.

For those of you against the death penalty, try placing your compassion with those who truely deserve it.

illegible usually

[artistcalledian 0]

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34 out of 36 for me

Y'know, Ian, I don't like you. No surprise there, right? With that said, and even though I have an opinion about your psyche, I think that there is a good reason why this test must be professionally and carefully administered to obtain a valid diagnosis.

It is very unlikely that you are a psychopath.

All personality disorders reflect normal human behaviors, magnified and twisted out of proportion. We're all going to exhibit some, if not nearly all, of these traits at different times. It is when these traits, in a cluster, become an ongoing, pervasive pattern of behavior that a diagnosis of this sort is made.

So I'm sorry to disappoint you. But I think your self-administration of the test is probably not all that accurate.

Let's try not to muddy the waters any more than they already are, eh?

rl

you don't like me? you don't even know me ! You don't like what you think i am, from what i've posted on here is what you mean i could be a 4 foot 7 inch woman called Brenda for all you know

This is how i see it, and its not mean't as an attack....

You've had a difficult upbringing due to other people, you've got away from those people and had therapy to help you come to terms with what happened to you... this has left you very sensitive to these type of people and situations. You read on the internet posts from somebody like me who doesn't take all this so serious, somebody like me who is just larking around most of the time, and, because of your previous experiences, you've taken a dislike to me

I guarantee you that if we met, you'd see that i'm not the person you think i am, just like i'm sure you're not the person you sometimes come accross as on here. I'd buy you a beer anytime and laugh about the stuff that gets posted, just like i would with 99.999 % of the others on here.

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[micro 0]

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I can accept the death penalty for an unrepentant schemer/killer (e.g. Osama Bin Laden, Tookie Williams at the time of his conviction). But if they have progressed past that point, their existence includes that transgression, but is more than that.

Here's a weird twist:

If I were Tookie, and I had honestly reformed, I think that part of my reformed character would feel that I ought to die as a final atonement for my crimes.

Very well said!

I miss Lee.
And JP.
And Chris. And...

[AlexCrowley 0]

ACI, not directly to you, just hitting reply.....

I have to say that I'm really pleased to see so many mental health professionals on the board. Abberrant psychology is an excellent field of study and it's warming to know that so many have chosen to follow it, doesnt really surprise me considering the fact that it's a group of skydiver - no guts and no glory and all that - high pressure, high rewards.

Reading the DSM does not make you a psychologist. Talking to a couple of sociopaths and feeling icky doesnt either.

The gaping flaws in the 'sociopath' argument are so glaring that it's obvious that a rational discussion can't take place as it reads the same as 'I have faith in god'. You can't intellectually argue against an emotionally held belief.

America has the emotional maturity of a 9 year old. It'll take a while for it to grow up. Well, at least the Europeans just nodded with a tolerant smile.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Ah sink sink sink.

Sorry dude, i'm wiring you up to the car battery.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.