Schwarzenegger denies Williams clemency plea

[rehmwa 2]

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I think you're carrying that one a little too far.

What was too far is the concept of ZERO MISTAKES before capital punishment is ok. I'm just illustrating that this points to a disconnect in reality and what "zero" really means. It means there is no tradeoff - it means you can't trade execution of a Million child rape/murderers while only mistakenly just killing some guy that only tortures after he rapes. For the sake of the one guy.

If he has a single exception in his mind of someone that deserves the death penalty, then taking the zero risk option is insincere. At that point, we should be talking risk tolerance and what level is appropriate, not just yes/no......

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

Bot - that's one of the most courteous posts I've ever seen you write. Thanks.

1 - If you think prison is cost effective, then I want you running the prisons so we can make money off of it.

2 - From your statements about 'paying for the crime', 'paying the victims with his work', etc - You are definitely confusing revenge/punishment/retribution with purpose of removing a threat from the rest of society. A lot of fondness here for 'compensation' that I think is not pertinent at all.

3 - I don't think you see my position. It's this "the current death penalty process is ineffective - either fix it or do away with it." I think fixing it composes: quick execution after sentencing, stricter guidlines for qualifying for the death penalty (to minimize mistakes), taking that sentence out of the hands of juries which can be very emotional and thus inconsistent from case to case.

I don't think we can fix it, there's too much emotion and not enough practicality. So, though I see a very strong reason to have a death penalty, I don't see a way to implement it to realize a responsible use of it.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TheAnvil 0]

Perhaps we should call this Rehmwa's Uncertainty Principle...if Heisenberg were alive, you and he could have a tea party.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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Perhaps we should call this Rehmwa's Uncertainty Principle...if Heisenberg were alive, you and he could have a tequila party.

what were you thinking?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Amazon 7]

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But in the end, aren't we all a bit machiavellian?

NoI dont believe that at all. Not everyone is Machiavellian
Oh and I guess I should have used the spellcheck.. bad Jeanne.. bad Jeanne.
Now onto another thought.
Ok with an administration who beats their chest and constantly touts their born againness, and the huge swing to the christian right wing, this country DOES add their own religeous cynicism to everything. Welcome to the American Taliban way of thinking.

The Death penalty is certainly broken.. when pieces of excrement like the Green River Killer and others who are getting life sentences, just so they can bring closure to where the bodies of their victims were hidden, is just wrong. The rich.. no matter how heinious the crime do not get death penalties.

SO.. think about this. if you support the death penalty... you are an accomplice to state sponsored murder, you have murder in your heart in the parlance of Christ. This is tantamount to the same thing as muder in his eyes.
So take it one step farther... with the BUSH Doctrine of preemtive strikes for evil doers.. the do unto them before you can do unto us... then all of you who support the death penalty... with murder in your hearts.. deserve the death penalty.

[SudsyFist 0]

On your own admission, you raised up the knife
And you brought it down ending another man's life
And when it was done you just threw down the blade
While the red blood spread wider like the anger you made

I don't want this anger burning in me
It's something from which it's so hard to be free
But none of the tears that we cry in sorrow or rage
Can make any difference or turn back the page

[AlexCrowley 0]

I'm sorry, I'm sure others have responded to this and that my thoughts are likely to have been repeated elsewhere in the thread - but my impulsive nature caused a 'reply'..

The death penalty echos the whole eye for an eye ideal. I personally think theres no Xtian justification for supporting it. No - please dont quote scripture at me defending it. it was just a thought about Jesus being pretty chill and ghandi-like (that line amuses me).

I think this situation brings up another christian related issue: that of redemption and forgiveness. Does a person change? I think so yes. Here as a parent in my 30s I look back at some of the things I've done in my past and cringe. If I had a son who did something similar I'd try to stop them.

If you as a person believe that persons value to the world is decided in a split second flash of gunfire then your own lives must also be defined by the shittiest and nastiest acts that you've ever done to yourselves and those around you, and no one is innocent.

I realize that there are those on both sides of the argument who believe different things, but I do not think its an exaggeration to say that on the whole the majority of laws in the US are based around the morality put forth in the Bible. In fact, several State laws even include the prescence of the prison chaplain at the execution. Jesus is quoted as saying that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit....

I dont believe the human spirit is immutable. Vengence is pointless and brings no rewards. The game of "ahh but if your kid was killed you'd want them dead right?". Yeah, most likely - but thats my reaction as a parent, a reaction of my own personal hurt. If someone wants to talk about that in PMs fine, but I realize the overall concept is something that many will misconstrue over simplify and completely misunderstand - kinda like me with Christianity in general

Personally I do not believe the death penalty as it is enforced should be used. But then I do not believe that every criminal deserves due process. The laws shitty but I think its role should be in its service to the people - so yes, by default I think that all criminals should be entitled to due process and a jury of their peers and that the death penalty should be abolished.
If we cannot forgive, evolve, transform or redeem ourselves and the actions of our past, and instead are forever tied to our darkest actions then the human race is truly fucked.

If those structures we put in place to govern society reduce a human to a few seconds, discarding everything else they may have contributed - can anyone be surprised when the members of that society place as little value on the lives of themselves or otheres?

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[SudsyFist 0]

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If we cannot forgive, evolve, transform or redeem ourselves and the actions of our past, and instead are forever tied to our darkest actions then the human race is truly fucked.

My word, that was absolutely beautiful.

[wmw999 2,589]

AC:

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If we cannot forgive, evolve, transform or redeem ourselves and the actions of our past, and instead are forever tied to our darkest actions then the human race is truly fucked.

SF:

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My word, that was absolutely beautiful.

Yeppir. I like that a whole lot.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[pajarito 0]

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If we cannot forgive, evolve, transform or redeem ourselves and the actions of our past, and instead are forever tied to our darkest actions then the human race is truly fucked.

He couldn't have done enough to make up for the lives he took in cold blood. That crime is, in a human sense, unforgivable. That is, unless you can somehow speak with those he murdered and they decide that they now forgive him. His actions since may be admirable, however, he's still a murderer and that crime does not go away no matter how many good works you do. His possible redemption and forgiveness is now between him and his maker.

[rehmwa 2]

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If those structures we put in place to govern society reduce a human to a few seconds, discarding everything else they may have contributed - can anyone be surprised when the members of that society place as little value on the lives of themselves or otheres?

I like this one better than the first - more coherent and doesn't contain the vulgarism.

Good acts are of value in themselves, not in relation to one's bad acts nor needing validation by society. So I don't consider those good acts are disregarded. Quite the opposite.

But completely separate from those bad acts that require addressing 'in its service to the people'.

LIfe is not a tally sheet. If you commit the decent act first instead of second, do you really think you get a free pass to do something heinous? Because a lot of people are saying that committing a good act later cancels the bad act of the past.

(actually, nice post)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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If he has a single exception in his mind of someone that deserves the death penalty, then taking the zero risk option is insincere.

I disagree. Were he to have existed in real life and survived his final encounter with Jody Foster the plausible risk of a state having wrongly sentenced to death the Buffalo Bill character in the movie Silence of the Lambs and then executing him by mistake would be zero. BB kept a bloody pit in the basement of a home he owned, recorded his crimes on videotape, preserved and toyed with his victims’ skins leaving DNA traces, raised exotic moths which were found in all his victim’s mouths, left a surviving witness alive who could identify him and fired shots at Agent Starling presumably from a gun that was registered to him and bore his fingerprints. Certainly it’s possible the feds could have framed BB because they needed a fallguy but, in view of the massive amount of interleaved direct evidence in the case, plus the fact that Foster would never accept to play a character who was party to such treachery, it just isn’t plausible BB was innocent of the crimes he presumably would have been convicted of had he surrendered to Foster. This hypothetical case would pass your test I believe, and real life occasionally furnishes comparable examples where the death penalty would be deserved and could be applied with zero plausible risk of executing an innocent person. Unfortunately real life also provides us with stories of guys like Rolando Cruz, who was framed by the government and narrowly escaped being killed by a state’s capital punishment machinery despite his innocence: http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/cruz.htm. My position is that I’m not willing to kill a single Cruz in trade for any number of guilty BB’s in real life and there’s nothing insincere or inconsistent about that and my openess to reinstituting capital punishment should conditions warrant. What harm would obtain from a pause?


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[RhondaLea 4]

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If you as a person believe that persons value to the world is decided in a split second flash of gunfire then your own lives must also be defined by the shittiest and nastiest acts that you've ever done to yourselves and those around you, and no one is innocent.

No one is innocent. We all have a lot to answer for as we go through our lives.

That's not the same as making a decision to take the life of another person. Second degree murder and manslaughter are not capital crimes, so it is possible to kill another human being and not be put to death. Both of these charges are a recognition of the reality that it is possible for one to cause death as an unintended consequence of one's acts.

Capital punishment is reserved for those who coldly and calculatingly choose to take the life of another.

Not everyone who wears the body of a human being is human. Some "people" are no more than rabid animals, and while we would not hesitate to put down a rabid dog, we shy away from putting down a creature that is less human than a dog because it wears a body like our own.

Without empathy, we are not human. But it is a waste of energy to put any action behind one's empathy on behalf of a sociopath. They don't feel what you feel. You are a cardboard cutout character to them--subhuman and only worthwhile to the extent that you are useful. It's difficult for people to understand, which is why so many do-gooders end up bitter at the result of their good works. Sociopaths cannot be fixed, and they will do harm again just as soon as it suits them.

I've mentioned before that I've worked in a criminal practice a couple of times in my career. In that context, I've had to deal with clients who were facing the death penalty. I have found them to be quite likable. That's the protective coloration of the sociopath at work. Such people can and will do anything to further their own cause. Anything.

I know it's hard to comprehend but that's just the way it is.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[wmw999 2,589]

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LIfe is not a tally sheet. If you commit the decent act first instead of second, do you really think you get a free pass to do something heinous? Because a lot of people are saying that committing a good act later cancels the bad act of the past.

Nope, it's not a tally sheet. And that argument, alone, is probably what separates me terminally from people who are for the death penalty.

I can accept the death penalty for an unrepentant schemer/killer (e.g. Osama Bin Laden, Tookie Williams at the time of his conviction). But if they have progressed past that point, their existence includes that transgression, but is more than that.

We are the sum of our pasts and our present. But I honestly think that at any given moment, a decision as final as death has to include the present with the past. Really.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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My position is that I’m not willing to kill a single Cruz in trade for any number of guilty BB’s in real life and there’s nothing insincere or inconsistent about that and my openess to reinstituting capital punishment should conditions warrant.

I went out quite a ways in moral philosophy and I'm not a good enough writer to get that across here. Let's just say my point in the post you and Sudsy responded too didn't come across clearly for a forum based discusssion. I'll elaborate next time we sit around the campfire sometime. Your answers are great, but not related to where I was trying to take the discussion. (and the statistics stuff is just a side track)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AlexCrowley 0]

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No one is innocent. We all have a lot to answer for as we go through our lives.

That's not the same as making a decision to take the life of another person. Second degree murder and manslaughter are not capital crimes, so it is possible to kill another human being and not be put to death. Both of these charges are a recognition of the reality that it is possible for one to cause death as an unintended consequence of one's acts.

So you have never in your life performed an act that was malicious, that you knew was malicious, and you knew you'd be in trouble if you did it?

Stealing, killing, raping, cheating on someone, insulting someone, lying - you are asking me to accept the fact that something bad that someone did should be punished without further thought of anything they have done.

Remwa talked about a balance sheet. I believe God keeps one, i believe that we as people also keep one for our friends. I'm sorry, I cant retain that much hate for another human simply to justify their death.

Rabid dogs aside, I think the content of my post was clear enough that your argument doesnt really have a place. Like I said, Id prefer that some criminals not even go through the system - but then you have a problem with who should judge that person - I feel the same way about the death penalty and the whole issue of judgement.

Humans are humans. sociopaths are humans. Not all sociopaths are killers and many function in society pretty well. Should a sociopath be killed immediately before commission of a crime? I'm pretty well versed in those areas of aberrant psychology, so I fully understand what you're saying, I think it's short sighted and still doesnt justify me being able to kill them.

Look, lets redraw the sociopath thing, lets take something closer to my own personal feelings: I think anyone that watches sitcoms is a waste of oxygen. I think most people are actually - with little to no redeeming features. Unfortunately I cannot simply kill them.

RL, sociopaths are at the far end of the spectrum. It's easy to talk about killing unrepentant killers with mental illnesses who can never be cured. While I disagree with you it I dont believe that it's the only thing in frame here. It's not about killers playing a system.

Its about being human. About trying to get a little more englightened than this fearful, impotent lashing out at our fears, and by doing so simply feeding into it.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[RhondaLea 4]

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So you have never in your life performed an act that was malicious, that you knew was malicious, and you knew you'd be in trouble if you did it?

I didn't say that. But I've never done anything that can't be fixed. Murder cannot be undone.

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Stealing, killing, raping, cheating on someone, insulting someone, lying - you are asking me to accept the fact that something bad that someone did should be punished without further thought of anything they have done.

No matter what good you do, you still need to atone for the evil you do. Part of atonement is accepting the punishment.

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I'm sorry, I cant retain that much hate for another human simply to justify their death.

I don't think hate is required.

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Humans are humans. sociopaths are humans.

No, they aren't. They lack the essential qualities of a human being.

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Not all sociopaths are killers and many function in society pretty well.

Not all sociopaths are killers, but all sociopaths, by definition, disrupt the lives they touch. Usually in such ways that to some of their victims, death would be preferable.

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Should a sociopath be killed immediately before commission of a crime?

Should Osama bin Laden have been put to death before 9/11?

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Look, lets redraw the sociopath thing, lets take something closer to my own personal feelings: I think anyone that watches sitcoms is a waste of oxygen. I think most people are actually - with little to no redeeming features. Unfortunately I cannot simply kill them.

The lack of redeeming features does not do harm to you or anyone else. This is not about personal taste.

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RL, sociopaths are at the far end of the spectrum. It's easy to talk about killing unrepentant killers with mental illnesses who can never be cured. While I disagree with you it I dont believe that it's the only thing in frame here. It's not about killers playing a system.

Sociopathy is NOT a mental illness, it is a personality disorder. If it were schizophrenia, we'd be having a different discussion, but it's not. Ultimately, sociopathy is a choice, not the result of a biochemical imbalance.

It is exactly about killers playing a system.

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Its about being human. About trying to get a little more englightened than this fearful, impotent lashing out at our fears, and by doing so simply feeding into it.

And we just plain old disagree. Sociopaths are not human, and the sooner we weed them out, the healthier we all will be.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[SudsyFist 0]

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Humans are humans. sociopaths are humans.

No, they aren't. They lack the essential qualities of a human being.

What, like 23 pairs of chromosomal goodness? Bipedal locomotion?

Jeepers creepers, RL, you're frightening me here.

• Quote

[wmw999 2,589]

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Sociopathy is NOT a mental illness, it is a personality disorder. If it were schizophrenia, we'd be having a different discussion, but it's not. Ultimately, sociopathy is a choice, not the result of a biochemical imbalance.

We don't know enough.

It's a choice, but how much of a lot that we do is choice? Why are some people able to succeed even with awful upbringings, and others can't? Is it all just attributable to weakness, or are there subtle pieces of what makes us who we are that gives us better or worse tools to deal with what life slings us?

We can accept that some people are more physically adept than others, and that it's inherent. We can accept that it's much harder for some normal people to become star athletes than others -- they don't have reaction time/strength/whatever.

I honestly think that there are other factors that we can't quantify that contribute -- your ability to deal with what happens to you. Call it will, call it whatever. And it's not just a decision to be inferior -- we're not all equally blessed.

Society should not be punished for that, which is why LWOP should probably be easier to sentence. However, can you honestly say that it's all decision and evil?

I really can't. I used to be on an email list with a death penalty appeal lawyer; she worked with some seriously bad people. She said she never wanted to meet the vast majority of them outside a prison, with guards etc. However, she also said that most of their personalities were so disordered, and their backgrounds so horrific, that it was not reasonable to call it all free choice.

Sociopathy is not understood yet. It may not be fixable other than with intensive operant conditioning as a child. We don't know how to fix or control pedophilia either. But that doesn't rob those people of their humanity.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[artistcalledian 0]

i think people analyse others too much, its a all a load of bollocks to be honest

He was a twat who killed people in cold blood, he deserved to fry for that, and he did.. end of story

or shall we go round in ever decresing circles discussing every last boring detail untill the cows come home?

i've got work at 8.30 tomorrow, can we speed up the navel gazing just a little

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[wmw999 2,589]

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can we speed up the navel gazing just a little

Whose navel are we gazing at? Not mine

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[kelpdiver 2]

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Only sheer luck saved McMillian. After listening to a tape recording of a key witness's testimony against McMillian, a volunteer apellate lawyer flipped the tape to see if there was anything on the other side. Only then did he hear the same witness complaining that he was being pressured to frame McMillian. With that fortuitous break, the whole case against McMillian began to fall apart. Every element of the prosecution's case has now been discredited. In 1993, McMillian was finally freed.

Solved by applying the death penalty to those who fabricate evidence in capital cases. (or for that matter, cases that result in life sentences)

Were there any consequences against them in this particular case?

[wmw999 2,589]

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Solved by applying the death penalty to those who fabricate evidence in capital cases.

They're trying that in Texas now. There's some evidence that an innocent man was put to death recently based on perjured testimony. The witness said he was pressured by the police (and given the circumstances, that's very possibly true).

He didn't recant until way later -- that's a problem. But, ya know, two wrongs really don't make a right.

If you're stupid, and might go down for a crime that you did commit, and have the opportunity to stay out by testifying against "some scumbag" who is probably guilty -- would you? We're talking about the members of society who would choose 10 days in jail over a $500 fine.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AlexCrowley 0]

Thats why its called a discussion forum, genius.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Thats ok. Sorry.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.