Schwarzenegger denies Williams clemency plea

[rhino 0]

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Personally, I tend to concentrate my efforts on California,

I like Texas.. While other states are trying to abolish the death penalty they are putting in an express lane.. If their are 3 eye whitnesses to the crime you go to the front of the line..

[GTAVercetti 0]

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>>But the rules are not written in stone.<<

Some people believe that the rules were written in stone. 10 of them. One of which is, "Thou shalt not kill."

Just to nitpick: The actual commandment translates better to "Thou shalt not murder". Meaning unlawful killing. Death within the law is okay.

But that is a whole other debate.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[lawrocket 3]

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>Then I figured out how to use the system to get even.

This is what bothers me about this.

You know, reading this now is making me say, "Gee. Tha came out wrong."

What I meant was that there have been occasions when the Judge has done the wrong thing. IT made me start to lose faith in the system. But, I was able to use "the system" to balance it out and put things back in my favor again.

Although yes, it looks like I said what you think (just a brain fart on my part) I intended it to mean that I used the system (appeals, reconsideration, renewed motion, or just plain biding my time) even out the judge's poor - or in one case outright capricious - decisionmaking. I didn't intend any revenge meaning to the statment.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[airtwardo 7]

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I think the death penalty is wrong in every situation.

Really? If a man walks up to your child and snaps it's neck in front of you killing it you don't think he should get the death penalty?

Does killing him bring back the child? No.

Does killing him give him any sort of way to pay back his debt to society by becoming a productive citizen? No.

Does killing him actually do anything positive apart from quenching the instinctive thirst for blood we all posess? No.

***

Does killing him keep him from ever killing again?
YES

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[rasmack 0]

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Does killing him keep him from ever killing again?
YES

So does locking him up...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[artistcalledian 0]

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I think the death penalty is wrong in every situation.

Really? If a man walks up to your child and snaps it's neck in front of you killing it you don't think he should get the death penalty?

Does killing him bring back the child? No.

Does killing him give him any sort of way to pay back his debt to society by becoming a productive citizen? No.

Does killing him actually do anything positive apart from quenching the instinctive thirst for blood we all posess? No.

but it would make me feel alot happier

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[lawrocket 3]

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At the end of last year, the US had 2,135,901 persons in prison.

Statistically, let me add this hypothetical, "Imagine you are driving and you happened upon a small town of about 280 people. You were wondering what the rate of imprisonment was, and you talked to the town constable, who said that the town only had two people in jail."

It really doesn't seem to me to be that much of a problem (and I know you probably read it the same way I do, Jim).

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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Does killing him keep him from ever killing again?
YES

So does locking him up...

Hmmm. Tell that to Jeffrey Dahmer, who was murdered in prison by a double murderer serving time. Or John Geoghan, the priest who was in prison and never killed anybody. Oh, yeah, he was murdered (actually stomped and strangled to death) by an inmate serving life without possibility of parole.

These are only a couple of well-known examples.

Wanna try again?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[artistcalledian 0]

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Does killing him keep him from ever killing again?
YES

So does locking him up...

Hmmm. Tell that to Jeffrey Dahmer, who was murdered in prison by a double murderer serving time. Or John Geoghan, the priest who was in prison and never killed anybody. Oh, yeah, he was murdered (actually stomped and strangled to death) by an inmate serving life without possibility of parole.

These are only a couple of well-known examples.

Wanna try again?

it's not supposed to be nice in there

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[airtwardo 7]

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Does killing him keep him from ever killing again?
YES

So does locking him up...

***
Other prisoners and prison guards may not agree with you there.
How about taking into consideration the possibility of an escape? It HAS happened...several times THIS year.

The figure I heard is 35,000.00 dollars a year to warehouse these defective units.
So what... we as taxpayers have to pay the price of a million bucks a piece?

I agree that the process is flawed, it's not metered out equally. But how about instead of 'doing away' with the death penalty, we enforce it uniformly.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[likearock 2]

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The arguments against capital punishment have been listed here. But one of the biggest arguments against capital punishment I see is the bloodlust that it feeds in some people. It's a very ugly side of humanity, one that I am sorry to see encouraged.

You're bucking against something so ingrained in the human psyche, you'll never see that changed. Just take a look at the works of Homer, Aeschylus, Shakespeare, etc. Vengeance is a key theme throughout.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the kind of need for vengeance as described in Grisham's "A Time To Kill". When someone kills your loved one and has no remorse but instead sneers and makes jokes about it, there is nothing wrong with wanting that person to die, and if the state puts them to death, so be it.

[artistcalledian 0]

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The arguments against capital punishment have been listed here. But one of the biggest arguments against capital punishment I see is the bloodlust that it feeds in some people. It's a very ugly side of humanity, one that I am sorry to see encouraged.

You're bucking against something so ingrained in the human psyche, you'll never see that changed. Just take a look at the works of Homer, Aeschylus, Shakespeare, etc. Vengeance is a key theme throughout.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with the kind of need for vengeance as described in Grisham's "A Time To Kill". When someone kills your loved one and has no remorse but instead sneers and makes jokes about it, there is nothing wrong with wanting that person to die, and if the state puts them to death, so be it.

i agree, i don't care if all the intelligent people in the world tell me it won't make any difference... if somebody kills a loved one of mine, i want that fucker dead... will it be vengence, yes of course it will be. Will it bring the dead person back, no. What it will do is make ME feel better, make me be able to go through life knowing who ever did it got what was coming to them

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[RhondaLea 4]

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I think the death penalty is wrong in every situation.

Really? If a man walks up to your child and snaps it's neck in front of you killing it you don't think he should get the death penalty?

Does killing him bring back the child? No.

Does killing him give him any sort of way to pay back his debt to society by becoming a productive citizen? No.

Does killing him actually do anything positive apart from quenching the instinctive thirst for blood we all posess? No.

It prevents him from doing the same thing again. It removes a failed experiment in humanity from the culture dish.

I don't view the death penalty as a deterrent. I see it solely as a way of permanently removing from society those who are unfit to be members of that society. The only thing that gives me pause about the death penalty is the possibility of making a mistake and executing an innocent man.

I don't think that in this case, that innocence is an issue.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[rasmack 0]

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At the end of last year, the US had 2,135,901 persons in prison.

Statistically, let me add this hypothetical, "Imagine you are driving and you happened upon a small town of about 280 people. You were wondering what the rate of imprisonment was, and you talked to the town constable, who said that the town only had two people in jail."

It really doesn't seem to me to be that much of a problem (and I know you probably read it the same way I do, Jim).

Easy now. I was just comparing the 2 million people to the extra burden of keeping the additional 1000 locked up. Btw. out of curiousity I checked the imprisonment rates. The US is by far the highest in the world (Clicky, select "Highest to lowest rates", "Entire World", "Prison Population Rates"), but that is probably for another thread...

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[rasmack 0]

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Wanna try again?

Wanna try running decent prison security? I admit it must be hard when you (not you personally) insist on keeping that many people locked up.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[lawrocket 3]

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I think the death penalty is wrong in every situation.

Really? If a man walks up to your child and snaps it's neck in front of you killing it you don't think he should get the death penalty?

Does killing him bring back the child? No.

Does killing him give him any sort of way to pay back his debt to society by becoming a productive citizen? No.

Does killing him actually do anything positive apart from quenching the instinctive thirst for blood we all posess? No.

It prevents him from doing the same thing again. It removes a failed experiment in humanity from the culture dish.

I don't view the death penalty as a deterrent. I see it solely as a way of permanently removing from society those who are unfit to be members of that society. The only thing that gives me pause about the death penalty is the possibility of making a mistake and executing an innocent man.

I don't think that in this case, that innocence is an issue.

rl

I may be one of the weird ones, but I wholly support the concept of the death penalty. That being said, I think there needs to be a moratorium on it while issues are investigated and repairs made. The situation in Illinois (I think) really led me to this.

Also, there's the "OJ Walked" situation that I advise every client about. There's no telling what a jury will do or even why they'll do it. It can be difficult.

Unlike Nightingale, I support the death penalty. Unlike many, I think it needs to be temporarily stopped and repaired as a pragmatic matter.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[lawrocket 3]

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Wanna try again?

Wanna try running decent prison security? I admit it must be hard when you (not you personally) insist on keeping that many people locked up.

Improving prison security? If that means putting convicted murderers in solitary confinement for the rest of their natural lives, then my answer is "no." That rises to the level of cruel and unusual punishment, in my opinion. And, it seems that it is the only way deaths like those of Geoghan and Dahmer could have been prevented.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[pajarito 0]

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The biggest travesty in the Tookie Williams case is that he was allowed to live on death row for the past 26 years. That is absolutely no justice to the four people who he brutally murdered. He should have been executed years ago and saved the taxpayers the money it cost to keep him alive, and freed up a slot on death row for some other butcher.

This says it all. I agree.

[rehmwa 2]

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I see is the bloodlust that it feeds in some people. It's a very ugly side of humanity, one that I am sorry to see encouraged.

This is vengeance in the name of the people usurping Gods judgement.

You two really have a low opinion of the human race - if only for those you don't know personally I guess those faceless masses just are a bunch of savages and idiots (or do you feel that way about all you best friends too? At least that would be consistent). Just animals slavering at the bit. I wish I was so enlightened/evolved and judgmental.

I don't know this guy from Adam. I have no emotion invested in him or his victims. But his crime showed he wasn't a part of society and was a clear danger to the rest of us. If the death penalty is warranted, then it should be carried out immediately. Coldly, without passion, without revenge, just to remove the threat from the rest of us. Lifetime in prison, long sentences, cause the damage to society. Punishment in the legal system isn't about revenge. If it was, then the victims and their families would be allowed to administer it.

Also, if the punishment were immediate, and not delayed, then perhaps the death penalty would be handed out even more sparingly. If we keep having delays and appeals, etc, then giving the death penalty will devolve to just a gesture and not a real penalty. Then judges can give it out all the time without worrying about the consequences of being wrong.

If are going to have it, we should administer without delay. Else it's meaningless.

If we are going to get rid of it, then we should get rid of it and not fool ourselves.

But having it (and yet not really having it) is a joke and cause this type of situation.

(The Peace Prize is a joke today - I'm still surprised people bring it up as a serious point)

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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The biggest travesty in the Tookie Williams case is that he was allowed to live on death row for the past 26 years. That is absolutely no justice to the four people who he brutally murdered.

1 - agree that the sentence should have been carried out immediately.

but:

2 - "Justice" has little to do with those 4 people - they are dead, it's too late. Justice has to do with Tookie's actions and how to protect "all of society" from him doing it to someone else. That's why the cases are called "Tookie vs the people of California", not "Tookie vs 4 dead people". Justice is about stopping future crimes, not revenge.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,588]

26 years ago, if the death penalty is warranted, then I'd say he'd be a pretty prime candidate.

Over the years, he appears to have done a noticeable amount of good. Does it balance the evil? Well, that's not my job to judge.

But, at this point in time, was society better served by having him here, doing the anti-gang work, or by having him dead, as an example of what can happen? Those, to me, are the important questions.

Revenge is for the families, not the state. In general I wouldn't put myself down as a death penalty proponent, for all the reasons that Illinois has a moratorium. No matter how hard you try to be fair, it just doesn't happen a lot of the time.

Being guilty of being a scumbag in general doesn't warrant the death penalty. And, contrary to popular belief, being convicted of a crime doesn't mean you actually committed it -- it just means that 12 people and a judge were convinced that you did. Big difference.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Casurf1978 0]

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1 - agree that the sentence should have been carried out immediately.

Then you run the risk of executing an innocent person, but no one really cares about that. It's just one innocent man. Take for example the following:

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Consider the case of Walter McMillian. He was released from Alabama's death row after having spent six years there because of perjured testimony and despite evidence that pointed to his innocence. He was convicted of the shooting death of a storekeeper. On the day of the murder he was at a fish fry with his friends and relatives, many of whom testified to this at his trial. No physical evidence linked him to the crime, but three people who testified at his trial connected him to the murder. All three witnesses received favors from the state for their incriminating testimony.

Only sheer luck saved McMillian. After listening to a tape recording of a key witness's testimony against McMillian, a volunteer apellate lawyer flipped the tape to see if there was anything on the other side. Only then did he hear the same witness complaining that he was being pressured to frame McMillian. With that fortuitous break, the whole case against McMillian began to fall apart. Every element of the prosecution's case has now been discredited. In 1993, McMillian was finally freed.

How would justice have been served if McMillain was executed?

[rehmwa 2]

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26 years ago, if the death penalty is warranted, then I'd say he'd be a pretty prime candidate.

>>>and the sentence should have been carried out immediately

Over the years, he appears to have done a noticeable amount of good. Does it balance the evil? Well, that's not my job to judge.

>>>it's not about balance, it's about the penalty under law

But, at this point in time, was society better served by having him here, doing the anti-gang work, or by having him dead, as an example of what can happen? Those, to me, are the important questions.

>>>these are moot to the point, under swift justice under the law these items have no place in consideration of the penalty of the crimes he did commit. Also moot, if he'd been executed swiftly, would that gang have dissolved without that rallying point? Would fewer kids have joined gangs? the hypothetical arguments are pointless without the time machine and crystal ball......

Revenge is for the families, not the state. In general I wouldn't put myself down as a death penalty proponent, for all the reasons that Illinois has a moratorium. No matter how hard you try to be fair, it just doesn't happen a lot of the time.

>>>sentences carried out under justice are not 'revenge' - this argument is an emotional one that should not be in play in this type of discussion - it's a distraction that keeps us off of the real issue - it's a bad 'tactic'

Being guilty of being a scumbag in general doesn't warrant the death penalty. And, contrary to popular belief, being convicted of a crime doesn't mean you actually committed it -- it just means that 12 people and a judge were convinced that you did. Big difference.

>>>give us a better system then. Error tolerance is part of the justice system, that's why we base it on 'innocent until proven guilty' unlike many other systems in the world today - that is to minimize the alpha error - other societies try to minimize the beta error (they'd rather punish the innocent to minimize releasing the guilty - we'd rather error the other way to maximizing protecting the innocent at cost to society). No matter what, errors are a part of the real world. Sadly, we do have to leave the whole concept of "perfect" verdicts to the unreasonable people out there that use the whole "we can't do anything because we aren't perfect" argument in all their discussions about government. Strangely enough, these people want society perfect, but expect just the opposite from individuals - I think they talk the talk, but can't and won't live up to their own impossible standards. It's "can't someone else do it?" crowd. It's funny, our system, by design, is one of the least judgemental, non-punishing systems out there, yet our system is blasted for just that. Our unwillingness to punish offenders is likely more reason we have higher crimes compared to the more socialistic Western societies than guns or subcultures or anything else. We enable it - we produce crime like an automated production line. But at least our intentions are good

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[rehmwa 2]

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How would justice have been served if McMillain was executed?

No justice in that one. It would have been an error from the structure of the system. What percent of incorrect guilty verdicts are there? What percent of incorrect innocent verdicts? For both, what is society willing to accept? If one is low, the other is high and vice versa, if you try to drive both low, then evidence and cost has to be astronomical. If you insist one must be zero, then you are living in a fantasy world.

I admire your vision that simple men and women can be perfect 100% of the time all the time in all endeavors. How is that going for you personally?

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Casurf1978 0]

I never said I was living in a fantasy world. But it is far easier to release a man from life imprisonment than bring back a dean one.