Nightingale 0 #26 December 13, 2005 and MURDER is what the state will be doing tonight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #27 December 13, 2005 Quoteand MURDER is what the state will be doing tonight. *** Not according to the Laws of the State of California. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #28 December 13, 2005 Quoteand MURDER is what the state will be doing tonight. I bet that shitbag is getting pretty shaky about now. You reckon? . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #29 December 13, 2005 Quote In the minimal amount of spare time that law school allows me, I do what I can to work for the abolition of the death penalty. With regards to lobbying the legislature, I'm sure they're already quite sick of hearing from me, and the staff of my senators and congressman know my voice on the phone without my even needing to state my name. i have binders full of responses to letters I've written both to politicians from my area and those outside it. I'm a member of the Los Angeles chapter of Death Penalty Focus. Two other students and I are in the process of trying to lobby the law school's student bar association to allow us to begin a chapter of Project Innocence. That's really all I have time for at the moment. And then you're doing far more than most people will do for whatever their beliefs are. Kris, I wasn't coming after you personally. You know me better than that. I understand your views, but I disagree with them. I'm sorry you're angry...if I felt the way you do, I might be angry as well. But I don't...and I think that the death penalty is a fitting sentence for this man. We will agree to disagree on this, yes? Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #30 December 13, 2005 I oppose it in all situations, because as long as the guilty are on death row, there will be innocents there too. As long as our system is imperfect, there will be mistakes. The death penalty is an irreversible mistake. You can let someone out of prison if they're found to be innocent. You can't un-execute someone. I'm not saying Tookie Williams doesn't "deserve it." What I'm saying is that executing him continues a barbaric practice that also kills innocent people, and that his death is doing more harm than good because he's simply worth a bit more to society alive than dead. He can't change what he did, but his influence has prevented some kids from doing what he did, and maybe if we keep him around, he can prevent a few more kids from joining gangs. Dead, the gangs will make him into a martyr, and that's a terrifying thought. This isn't just about Tookie Williams. it's about the effect the death penalty has on society. It doesn't do a lot of good, and causes a lot of problems. It doesn't give closure to victim's families. They're still caught up in the middle decades later because of all the hearings and red tape, which are necessary as attempts to prevent the execution of innocent people. Lock the guy up for life and let the families move on as best they can. The death penalty doesn't save money. Even a death penalty trial costs more than a regular trial because there are two separate phases (trial phase and penalty phase). Housing death row inmates is more expensive than regular inmates. Executions themselves are damned expensive. Also, money is a pretty stupid reason to advocate killing someone in the first place. The system we have does not work. Until the system is perfect, we will always run the risk of executing an innocent. As long as we run that risk, we shouldn't be having exections. Far too many people don't care about the wrongly accused until it's too late. They start to care when it's themselves or their parent, sibling, child, relative, or friend that stands wrongly accused, and by that point, it's probably too late. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #31 December 13, 2005 interesting how federal law differs from state law: Federal law defines murder as "the willful killing of one human being by another." State law defines it as "the unlawful killing of a human being..." Interesting how one word makes all the difference. What separates state-sanctioned murder from criminal murder is simply that one is legal and the other is not. Both are one person killing another person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #32 December 13, 2005 I agree with a lot of what you said. But the rules are not written in stone. We change them when they suit us. We make deals with murderers so they can rat out a bigger fish. No one is asking to let this man go free. He's far from a saint, but at least alive he can do some good. He'll never be able to repay society for the murder of those 4 people, but what if he can prevent one kid from following the same path he did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #33 December 13, 2005 QuoteWhat separates state-sanctioned murder from criminal murder is simply that one is legal and the other is not. *** No...what separates them is the REASON for the killing. Like Michele, I applaud your commitment to your belief...I just don't agree with with you. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #34 December 13, 2005 Quoteat least alive he can do some good. He'll never be able to repay society for the murder of those 4 people, but what if he can prevent one kid from following the same path he did. *** He is doing some good, he's showing by example that if you kill, you die. With all this publicity, who knows...perhaps he's effecting MANY kids not to go down the same path he did. In many circles it seems it's not politically correct to be a proponent of the death penalty, but I'm sorry..my compassion goes out to those who's lives were abruptly ended...withOUT cause. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #35 December 13, 2005 QuoteThis isn't just about Tookie Williams. So where were you in the other 1000+ executions. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot1 0 #36 December 13, 2005 QuoteClemency is not the same as a pardon. Clemency means he gets life in prison instead. Did his VICTIMS have that choice? Edwww.WestCoastWingsuits.com www.PrecisionSkydiving.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #37 December 13, 2005 QuoteThe system we have does not work. Are you still planning on raising your right hand and taking and taking the oath?" Where you promise to faithfully discharge the duties of an attorney at law? I have lost faith in the system at times. Then I figured out how to use the system to get even. You'll have an oath to enforce laws, and it may be unpleasant. But, dammit, it'll be your job. And you will have made an oath. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #38 December 13, 2005 >>But the rules are not written in stone.<< Some people believe that the rules were written in stone. 10 of them. One of which is, "Thou shalt not kill." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #39 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteThis isn't just about Tookie Williams. So where were you in the other 1000+ executions. Personally, I tend to concentrate my efforts on California, since, as a citizen of this state, it's where I can be most easily heard and where my opinion carries the most weight. I feel I can accomplish more lobbying here than out of state. However, since you asked: on and around January 19, 2005 I was out protesting, making phone calls, and writing letters, and doing what I could to support DPF. On and around January 29, 2002; March 27, 2001; March 15, 2000; May 4, 1999; February 9, 1999; and July 14, 1998, I was busy protesting and writing letters to government officials as well as participating in the Death Penalty Abolition group on my college/grad school campus. On and around May 3, 1996; February 23, 1996, and August 24, 1993 I was in high school and my mom wouldn't let me go to protests, so I organized a few on my school campus, and, of course, wrote letters and made phone calls. When I was in junior high and elementary school, I didn't know a lot about it, so I can't say I was doing anything at that point in time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #40 December 13, 2005 >Then I figured out how to use the system to get even. This is what bothers me about this. There are lots of arguments _for_ the death penalty. One is that the criminal is off the streets, permanently. That prevents him from killing again. Life imprisonment is as good as the death penalty for this, though. A second one is deterrent. That's of marginal value because of the martyr angle. Some will _aspire_ to be the sort of hero that a martyr is. (Twisted, I know, but there are twisted people out there.) Others will be far more fearful of execution than life in prison. Yet others fear both (life in a box, death) about the same, so one is no better or worse than the other as a deterrent. The percentages of each kind of person determines its value as a deterrent. The third is, to me, the scariest. It's the revenge angle. It's to "get even." It's to "make things right." Nothing can make things even again; nothing can right the wrong a murder makes. Not even more killing. The idea that so many people think that killing enough will make things right - the idea that there will be some very happy people tonight because of an execution - is scary. The arguments against capital punishment have been listed here. But one of the biggest arguments against capital punishment I see is the bloodlust that it feeds in some people. It's a very ugly side of humanity, one that I am sorry to see encouraged. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #41 December 13, 2005 I'll help enforce the laws, but there are laws, while I'll enforce them if I must, I'll also try to change them. Being a part of the system doesn't mean that I can't work to make the system better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #42 December 13, 2005 QuoteThe third is, to me, the scariest. It's the revenge angle. It's to "get even." It's to "make things right." Nothing can make things even again; nothing can right the wrong a murder makes. Not even more killing. The idea that so many people think that killing enough will make things right - the idea that there will be some very happy people tonight because of an execution - is scary. The arguments against capital punishment have been listed here. But one of the biggest arguments against capital punishment I see is the bloodlust that it feeds in some people. It's a very ugly side of humanity, one that I am sorry to see encouraged. Touche Bill This is all about REVENGE.. just listen to the people here. In this "christian" society, where to atone for ones sins is paid lip service, where a certain passage in the Bible comes to mind, Judge not, Lest ye be judged. This is vengeance in the name of the people usurping Gods judgement. All these fine christians voicing their bloodlust... me thinks maybe they are not such good christians after all. I think Christ would actually forgive if he is asked. This serves no good purpose but to further show the world that perhaps our belief in human rights is indeed a sham. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #43 December 13, 2005 I for one don't believe in God, although I do kinda like the whole eye for an eye thing... I don't think I express any 'blood lust' over the death penalty, in fact I agree with Bill that the fact it's 'celebrated' scares me...I look with awe at the group of idiots standing outside the prison holding the Fry baby Fry signs. Revenge? I don't know....never lost someone I love to cold blooded murder. I can't say if that's valid. Deterrent? Yup! Mr.Williams won't kill again, it's deterred him. And I do think there are young impressionables that just might think twice about destroying someone's life and in the course, theirs too. Even better, showing the 'I've changed' routine doesn't work. Anybody watching CNN? The guy from Illinois that was released from death row after DNA tests cleared him...the guy that was the catalyst for all Illinois death penalties to be commuted to life...just said Williams should die... "He killed those people, he's guilty and needs to pay the price." So be it... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Casurf1978 0 #44 December 13, 2005 Quote"He killed those people, he's guilty and needs to pay the price." Is that justice? Sammy Gravano killed at least 19 people and hes free right now, Joseph Valachi is another one, how about Henry Hill, or Chuckie Grimaldi. All killers are worse than Williams, yet they they got off scott free. The rules were broken for these men. I respect your opinion on the DP, but think its BS that everyone here is ready to fry Williams yet we turn a blind eye to people like Gravano. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #45 December 13, 2005 Quote "He killed those people, he's guilty and needs to pay the price." Sorry for being slow on the uptake here, but why? I truly do not see how it solves anything (apart from supplying revenge) that this guy is six under instead of behind bars. At the end of last year, the US had 2,135,901 persons in prison. A number that is rising with 2-3% every year. surely the 1000 executed inmates are a smaller perturbation on a prison budget of that size. I would consider it a small price to retain my humanity, but hey, it's your country. As for the deterrent angle, if it is there it is probably not statistically significant. The link is to a UCLA dept. of statistics paper published in Journal of Empirical Legal Studies Volume 2 Issue 2 Page 303 - July 2005.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #46 December 13, 2005 QuoteI'm not saying he should get a free pass. Clemency is not the same as a pardon. Clemency means he gets life in prison instead. Clemency is a free pass. The atonement he has made is only a part of the debt he owes, not a release from the consequences of his acts. rlIf you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #47 December 13, 2005 Huh. Believe what ever you wish so to make you sleep at night. The reality of the world will still be there when you wake up.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #48 December 13, 2005 QuoteDeterrent? Yup! Mr.Williams won't kill again, it's deterred him. And I do think there are young impressionables that just might think twice about destroying someone's life and in the course, theirs too. Illinois suspended the death penalty on January 31, 2000. The murder rate in Illinois then fell 6.5 percent below 1999. It might be because I'm not what one would consider a "young impressionable", but if I was considering murdering someone, the possibility that I might get the death penalty versus life imprisonment would not affect my decision at all. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #49 December 13, 2005 QuoteI think the death penalty is wrong in every situation. Really? If a man walks up to your child and snaps it's neck in front of you killing it you don't think he should get the death penalty? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rasmack 0 #50 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think the death penalty is wrong in every situation. Really? If a man walks up to your child and snaps it's neck in front of you killing it you don't think he should get the death penalty? Does killing him bring back the child? No. Does killing him give him any sort of way to pay back his debt to society by becoming a productive citizen? No. Does killing him actually do anything positive apart from quenching the instinctive thirst for blood we all posess? No.HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227 “I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.” - Not quite Oscar Wilde... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
