MooChooser 0 #1 December 12, 2005 So, how can so many people still be religious in this day and age? I can understand why cave men/women might need religion to explain the mysteries of the world, but now we have science and more developed brains for that. As far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". I'm open minded and won't dismiss anything without consideration, but it seems religion is just an advanced form of denial. For those of you who are religious, what is it that makes you so sure that all of those hours in church are not spent in vain? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #2 December 12, 2005 cavemen had religion? edit... are you seriously asking or is this just another veiled attempt to mock people who believe in God, as so many other recent threads have done? I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike111 0 #3 December 12, 2005 I'm open minded and won't dismiss anything without consideration, but it seems religion is just an advanced form of denial. Quote And it is possible for them to say the same about Atheists to as it is for atheists to claim it about them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Loonix 0 #4 December 12, 2005 having a religion makes sense for alot of people. It gives hope and may strengthen you when down, etc. Do not underestimate the power of placebo.. There's a reason evolution gave it to us, and I think it still may have advantages, for some people. There is, however, no reason to believe what the bible says, or that of holy books of other religions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites micro 0 #5 December 12, 2005 Quotehaving a religion makes sense for alot of people. It gives hope and may strengthen you when down, etc. Do not underestimate the power of placebo.. There's a reason evolution gave it to us, and I think it still may have advantages, for some people. There is, however, no reason to believe what the bible says, or that of holy books of other religions. ... and don't assume it's all placebo b/c it doesn't fit the prevailing philosophy of pragmatic materialism. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #6 December 13, 2005 Quotecavemen had religion? once again proving you need to do ALOT more research on the subject of Religion....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MooChooser 0 #7 December 13, 2005 Quotecavemen had religion? edit... are you seriously asking or is this just another veiled attempt to mock people who believe in God, as so many other recent threads have done? No im not mocking those who believe in god. I just want to know why they do. It seems that in order to end up religious, you need to be raised that way or use it as a means to overcome some kind of affliction/trauma. A generalisation I know, but it is certainly the case for well over 99% of the worlds religious population. Very few of the worlds religious people entered their religions with an objective point of view about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites badenhop 0 #8 December 13, 2005 Hello, I grew up with all those new science books too. We were taught in school to have faith in the scientists. Anything you believe in takes faith. The scientist points his telescope or microscope at such and such an object, shines a colored light through a chemical filter, and then tells you the exact age of such and such. That example takes faith to believe. Evolution (?), of course there's evolution, God invented it. If evolution is all there is, why are there still worms on the Earth? Shouldn't all worms be human by now, or at least have grown eyeballs? Faith and religion are not restricted to hours in a church. In fact, faith takes the whole life. Faith has times of doubt, but when resolved, strengthen faith. Ten years ago, I doubted the lack of God. When resolved, I still had: nothing. God is, and I know it, and I'm sure I can't convince you. It's in your heart. I can't explain God to you. If God could be explained, it would not be God. If all there is, is what you see, what is the point? Are you convinced there is no point? The way I understand it at this moment is: everything matters. Aim just for Earth, and you'll get it, but that's all. Aim for Heaven, and you may get it, with the Earth thrown in as a bonus. (C.S. Lewis, my interpretation). Have you ever wondered about "good" and "evil"? Does it exist? Isn't it obvious? If you are convinced there is no good v. evil, you are good (or bad) to go. Could I ask you to consider this:(?) If good and evil really are competing in a fight to the finish, do you think evil will fight fair? If I was in a literal fight to the finish, no holds would be barred. If I was in a fight to the finish with my neighbor, I would try convince his children to take my side, and ruin my enemy from the inside out. Put that logic in any situation. There is a competition going on here. Religion is an advanced form of acceptance. God bless you.================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RhondaLea 4 #9 December 13, 2005 QuoteAs far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". And that works for you, so it's all good. I figure people should believe whatever they want, as long as part of their belief doesn't include shoving it down the throats of those who believe differently. I object to proselytizing for atheism as much as I object to proselytizing for one's religion. Although this may seem a gratuitous swipe at your post, I figure that it's only fair given that I whacked Windcatcher et al. for doing exactly what you just did. To me, it's just as distasteful from one side as it is the other. rl P.S. to micro: Yes, Michael, cavemen had religion, of sorts. At the very least, they had spiritual beliefs. (I can't really tell if you're being a smartass or not, so I took it as straightforward incredulity. If otherwise, feel free to make fun of me.) P.P.S. Avery can witness to me any hour of the day or night. It's not going to change me, but anything he has to say, I listen.If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,120 #10 December 13, 2005 >If evolution is all there is, why are there still worms on the Earth? Because each animal evolves to fit its own niche. Worms do very well for themselves; heck, invertebrates are the dominant form of life on the planet. They win both by number of species and sheer mass. They must be doing something right! >Shouldn't all worms be human by now, or at least have grown eyeballs? It is an inherently human conceit to believe that we are the "pinnacle" of evolution. We are just one result. Are we more magnificent than a blue whale? Do we have better hearing than a bat, better eyes than an eagle? Are we stronger than a chimpanzee or faster than a cheetah? Are our feet better adapted for running than a horse's? Are our legs better adapted to swimming than a manatee's? Are our arms better adapted for the air than a flying squirrel's? Nope. We did evolve intelligence, which is why we consider ourselves superior. But there is far more to life than intelligence. Why would worms need eyes, anyway? They need good eyes as much as we need appendixes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MooChooser 0 #11 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". And that works for you, so it's all good. I figure people should believe whatever they want, as long as part of their belief doesn't include shoving it down the throats of those who believe differently. I object to proselytizing for atheism as much as I object to proselytizing for one's religion. Although this may seem a gratuitous swipe at your post, I figure that it's only fair given that I whacked Windcatcher et al. for doing exactly what you just did. To me, it's just as distasteful from one side as it is the other. rl P.S. to micro: Yes, Michael, cavemen had religion, of sorts. At the very least, they had spiritual beliefs. (I can't really tell if you're being a smartass or not, so I took it as straightforward incredulity. If otherwise, feel free to make fun of me.) P.P.S. Avery can witness to me any hour of the day or night. It's not going to change me, but anything he has to say, I listen. I am not proselytizing nor am I an atheist. I'm just curious as to what it is that would make someone religious. The concept of religion just seems absurd to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #12 December 13, 2005 QuoteSo, how can so many people still be religious in this day and age? I can understand why cave men/women might need religion to explain the mysteries of the world, but now we have science and more developed brains for that. As far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". I'm open minded and won't dismiss anything without consideration, but it seems religion is just an advanced form of denial. For those of you who are religious, what is it that makes you so sure that all of those hours in church are not spent in vain? its quite simple really... people believe in god and all that crap so they don't feel so bad about dieing, comforts them to think when they do die, its not the end... that they go "on" if they behave themselves enough. People believing in god doesn't effect my life, so let them believe in what they want________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,150 #13 December 13, 2005 Quotecavemen had religion? edit... are you seriously asking or is this just another veiled attempt to mock people who believe in God, as so many other recent threads have done? Why is mocking people who believe in one particular invisible friend ( your God) without proof any different from mocking any other person who believes in other invisible friends without proof? What is so special about your particular invisible mythical friend that he deserves special treatment?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites highfly 0 #14 December 13, 2005 [replyits quite simple really... people believe in god and all that crap so they don't feel so bad about dieing, comforts them to think when they do die, its not the end... that they go "on" if they behave themselves enough. People believing in god doesn't effect my life, so let them believe in what they want Shit Ian. Thats one of your better posts Now I dont belive in any religion. The closet I ever came to beleiving was while I was in India. I spent a week in a place called Hampi which is the Temple city of Hanuman who is the Hindi Monkey god. I felt a lot of deep feelings in Hampi and visited some very special temples in the area. A day after leaving Hampi I felt a calling to go back but was unfortunatly out of time on my trip to India. As I looked up after my feeling of a calling I seen a perfect picture of Hanuman in the clouds lookinig directly at me. My ex was also there and she seen it also. I knew at that point there was something about the place. I couldnt become Hindu because you have to be born into the religion, But so far its the only religion that has really "touched"me as to say.. www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Loonix 0 #4 December 12, 2005 having a religion makes sense for alot of people. It gives hope and may strengthen you when down, etc. Do not underestimate the power of placebo.. There's a reason evolution gave it to us, and I think it still may have advantages, for some people. There is, however, no reason to believe what the bible says, or that of holy books of other religions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #5 December 12, 2005 Quotehaving a religion makes sense for alot of people. It gives hope and may strengthen you when down, etc. Do not underestimate the power of placebo.. There's a reason evolution gave it to us, and I think it still may have advantages, for some people. There is, however, no reason to believe what the bible says, or that of holy books of other religions. ... and don't assume it's all placebo b/c it doesn't fit the prevailing philosophy of pragmatic materialism. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #6 December 13, 2005 Quotecavemen had religion? once again proving you need to do ALOT more research on the subject of Religion....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooChooser 0 #7 December 13, 2005 Quotecavemen had religion? edit... are you seriously asking or is this just another veiled attempt to mock people who believe in God, as so many other recent threads have done? No im not mocking those who believe in god. I just want to know why they do. It seems that in order to end up religious, you need to be raised that way or use it as a means to overcome some kind of affliction/trauma. A generalisation I know, but it is certainly the case for well over 99% of the worlds religious population. Very few of the worlds religious people entered their religions with an objective point of view about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
badenhop 0 #8 December 13, 2005 Hello, I grew up with all those new science books too. We were taught in school to have faith in the scientists. Anything you believe in takes faith. The scientist points his telescope or microscope at such and such an object, shines a colored light through a chemical filter, and then tells you the exact age of such and such. That example takes faith to believe. Evolution (?), of course there's evolution, God invented it. If evolution is all there is, why are there still worms on the Earth? Shouldn't all worms be human by now, or at least have grown eyeballs? Faith and religion are not restricted to hours in a church. In fact, faith takes the whole life. Faith has times of doubt, but when resolved, strengthen faith. Ten years ago, I doubted the lack of God. When resolved, I still had: nothing. God is, and I know it, and I'm sure I can't convince you. It's in your heart. I can't explain God to you. If God could be explained, it would not be God. If all there is, is what you see, what is the point? Are you convinced there is no point? The way I understand it at this moment is: everything matters. Aim just for Earth, and you'll get it, but that's all. Aim for Heaven, and you may get it, with the Earth thrown in as a bonus. (C.S. Lewis, my interpretation). Have you ever wondered about "good" and "evil"? Does it exist? Isn't it obvious? If you are convinced there is no good v. evil, you are good (or bad) to go. Could I ask you to consider this:(?) If good and evil really are competing in a fight to the finish, do you think evil will fight fair? If I was in a literal fight to the finish, no holds would be barred. If I was in a fight to the finish with my neighbor, I would try convince his children to take my side, and ruin my enemy from the inside out. Put that logic in any situation. There is a competition going on here. Religion is an advanced form of acceptance. God bless you.================================== I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton http://www.AveryBadenhop.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #9 December 13, 2005 QuoteAs far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". And that works for you, so it's all good. I figure people should believe whatever they want, as long as part of their belief doesn't include shoving it down the throats of those who believe differently. I object to proselytizing for atheism as much as I object to proselytizing for one's religion. Although this may seem a gratuitous swipe at your post, I figure that it's only fair given that I whacked Windcatcher et al. for doing exactly what you just did. To me, it's just as distasteful from one side as it is the other. rl P.S. to micro: Yes, Michael, cavemen had religion, of sorts. At the very least, they had spiritual beliefs. (I can't really tell if you're being a smartass or not, so I took it as straightforward incredulity. If otherwise, feel free to make fun of me.) P.P.S. Avery can witness to me any hour of the day or night. It's not going to change me, but anything he has to say, I listen.If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #10 December 13, 2005 >If evolution is all there is, why are there still worms on the Earth? Because each animal evolves to fit its own niche. Worms do very well for themselves; heck, invertebrates are the dominant form of life on the planet. They win both by number of species and sheer mass. They must be doing something right! >Shouldn't all worms be human by now, or at least have grown eyeballs? It is an inherently human conceit to believe that we are the "pinnacle" of evolution. We are just one result. Are we more magnificent than a blue whale? Do we have better hearing than a bat, better eyes than an eagle? Are we stronger than a chimpanzee or faster than a cheetah? Are our feet better adapted for running than a horse's? Are our legs better adapted to swimming than a manatee's? Are our arms better adapted for the air than a flying squirrel's? Nope. We did evolve intelligence, which is why we consider ourselves superior. But there is far more to life than intelligence. Why would worms need eyes, anyway? They need good eyes as much as we need appendixes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooChooser 0 #11 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". And that works for you, so it's all good. I figure people should believe whatever they want, as long as part of their belief doesn't include shoving it down the throats of those who believe differently. I object to proselytizing for atheism as much as I object to proselytizing for one's religion. Although this may seem a gratuitous swipe at your post, I figure that it's only fair given that I whacked Windcatcher et al. for doing exactly what you just did. To me, it's just as distasteful from one side as it is the other. rl P.S. to micro: Yes, Michael, cavemen had religion, of sorts. At the very least, they had spiritual beliefs. (I can't really tell if you're being a smartass or not, so I took it as straightforward incredulity. If otherwise, feel free to make fun of me.) P.P.S. Avery can witness to me any hour of the day or night. It's not going to change me, but anything he has to say, I listen. I am not proselytizing nor am I an atheist. I'm just curious as to what it is that would make someone religious. The concept of religion just seems absurd to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #12 December 13, 2005 QuoteSo, how can so many people still be religious in this day and age? I can understand why cave men/women might need religion to explain the mysteries of the world, but now we have science and more developed brains for that. As far as I can tell there is absolutely no reason to "believe". I'm open minded and won't dismiss anything without consideration, but it seems religion is just an advanced form of denial. For those of you who are religious, what is it that makes you so sure that all of those hours in church are not spent in vain? its quite simple really... people believe in god and all that crap so they don't feel so bad about dieing, comforts them to think when they do die, its not the end... that they go "on" if they behave themselves enough. People believing in god doesn't effect my life, so let them believe in what they want________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #13 December 13, 2005 Quotecavemen had religion? edit... are you seriously asking or is this just another veiled attempt to mock people who believe in God, as so many other recent threads have done? Why is mocking people who believe in one particular invisible friend ( your God) without proof any different from mocking any other person who believes in other invisible friends without proof? What is so special about your particular invisible mythical friend that he deserves special treatment?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
highfly 0 #14 December 13, 2005 [replyits quite simple really... people believe in god and all that crap so they don't feel so bad about dieing, comforts them to think when they do die, its not the end... that they go "on" if they behave themselves enough. People believing in god doesn't effect my life, so let them believe in what they want Shit Ian. Thats one of your better posts Now I dont belive in any religion. The closet I ever came to beleiving was while I was in India. I spent a week in a place called Hampi which is the Temple city of Hanuman who is the Hindi Monkey god. I felt a lot of deep feelings in Hampi and visited some very special temples in the area. A day after leaving Hampi I felt a calling to go back but was unfortunatly out of time on my trip to India. As I looked up after my feeling of a calling I seen a perfect picture of Hanuman in the clouds lookinig directly at me. My ex was also there and she seen it also. I knew at that point there was something about the place. I couldnt become Hindu because you have to be born into the religion, But so far its the only religion that has really "touched"me as to say.. www.myspace.com/durtymac Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philh 0 #15 December 13, 2005 If you want to understand why people are religious. i would reccomend reading about memes. They behave like genes but are human ideas. They reproduce themselves like genes. Religion is a very effective meme, in most cases its most important message is follow us or die either an actual death(eg Judaism) or an eternal death(eg christianity). it uses the balckmail of hell and the bribery of heaven to get itself reproduced and the beauty of it all is that you cant find out the goods are all bogus until you die. Ingenious.Notice that almost everyone in the world follows the religion they were born with. That should give you a clue as to the nature of religious belief. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #16 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuotecavemen had religion? once again proving you need to do ALOT more research on the subject of Religion.... Zen... You're such an intellectual giant. Your enlightenment brightens the sky for all of us. I'm in awe of your complete understanding of everything while the rest of us continue to crawl around in darkness. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #17 December 13, 2005 To get back to the "cavemen had religion" comment, well, what is religion? If it's only Catholicism, or Christianity in general, then they didn't. If it is, on the other hand, a wondering about where they came from and how the world happened, I don't think any people has been found that didn't have some sort of religion, even if it was worship of the sun or the earth. That, in my book, would be a form of religion. An acknowledgement that there is a force out there that is more powerful than they are. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #18 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuotecavemen had religion? once again proving you need to do ALOT more research on the subject of Religion.... we may both speak English Zen, but evidentally not the same kind. It was a fucking joke. Relax honey. Yeah, I called you honey. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #19 December 13, 2005 QuoteQuotecavemen had religion? edit... are you seriously asking or is this just another veiled attempt to mock people who believe in God, as so many other recent threads have done? Why is mocking people who believe in one particular invisible friend ( your God) without proof any different from mocking any other person who believes in other invisible friends without proof? What is so special about your particular invisible mythical friend that he deserves special treatment? The problem, dear professor, is that you see it as acceptable to mock ANYONE'S beliefs, whether you agree w/ them or not. And then there's your air of blatant intellectual triumphalism - if someone doesn't espouse your particular credo that science is the only begettor of truth, then they are somehow mindless, old-fashioned, un-thinking. I've come to believe in the old saw that you can't teach old dogs new tricks, so I will not expect anything different from you other than the same shit you've spewed for so long, even amidst my attempts to engage you in honest conversation (asking you why you believe the death penalty is wrong, for example) that you ALWAYS refuse to answer. Just remember, you'll soon meet my mythical friend , and when you do, tell him I said hi. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #20 December 13, 2005 QuoteP.S. to micro: Yes, Michael, cavemen had religion, of sorts. At the very least, they had spiritual beliefs. (I can't really tell if you're being a smartass or not, so I took it as straightforward incredulity. If otherwise, feel free to make fun of me.) I won't make fun of you, since it is easy for the communicator on the web to fail to convey his actual meaning. The caveman comment was a joke, one that was obviously lost on some usual antagonistic suspects (you and wendy not included). What is interesting is that belief in a creator can be found in virtual every strata of humans, in every times, in every places. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #21 December 13, 2005 QuoteThe problem, dear professor, is that you see it as acceptable to mock ANYONE'S beliefs, whether you agree w/ them or not. And then there's your air of blatant intellectual triumphalism - if someone doesn't espouse your particular credo that science is the only begettor of truth, then they are somehow mindless, old-fashioned, un-thinking. I've come to believe in the old saw that you can't teach old dogs new tricks, so I will not expect anything different from you other than the same shit you've spewed for so long, even amidst my attempts to engage you in honest conversation (asking you why you believe the death penalty is wrong, for example) that you ALWAYS refuse to answer. Just remember, you'll soon meet my mythical friend , and when you do, tell him I said hi. Nice! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooChooser 0 #22 December 13, 2005 Micro, you're obviously a religious man. Were your parents religious or did you choose it for yourself? Either way, what is it that keeps you religious? This is really the question I was asking. It seems that as time goes on religion evolves to fit better into the world around it. Does this mean that they were wrong in the beginning or that religion is a non specific idea open to individual interpretation? If so, then why stick so vehemently to ones ideas? QuoteIf you want to understand why people are religious. i would reccomend reading about memes. They behave like genes but are human ideas. They reproduce themselves like genes. Religion is a very effective meme, in most cases its most important message is follow us or die either an actual death(eg Judaism) or an eternal death(eg christianity). it uses the balckmail of hell and the bribery of heaven to get itself reproduced and the beauty of it all is that you cant find out the goods are all bogus until you die. Ingenious.Notice that almost everyone in the world follows the religion they were born with. That should give you a clue as to the nature of religious belief. What do the religious ones among us think about this theory? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #23 December 13, 2005 I think it has a lot to do with the way you are told to view Science. For me the more I learn about science, and the complexity of our world the more I believe in a God. I have heard people go on and on that there is no God. I always ask the same question. Who made the first speck of dust that all of us originate from or the colliding masses to make the big bang? I choose to believe in God and the more I learn about the universe the more I believe in Gods greatness.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #24 December 13, 2005 ditto. I'm a scientist (molecular biologist, currently doing AIDS research), and I've found it strengthens my belief in God. Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MooChooser 0 #25 December 13, 2005 Time is not as rigid as a lot of people think. There was no "before" the big bang. The human mind has a hard time coping with infinity. QuoteFor me the more I learn about science, and the complexity of our world the more I believe in a God. But it wasnt science itself that first convinced you there was a god, Its just reinforcing your religious views right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
