jenfly00 0 #201 December 9, 2005 QuoteSo would it have been better for them to believe the guy had a mental problem and allow him to detonate a bomp and kill thousands of people? I mean by your thoughts, since it wasnt a bomb the marshalls were out of line, but Im sorry if someone is yelling at me to "drop the bag or Ill shoot, drop the bag or ill shoot , drop the bag or Ill shoot" Im dropping the fucking bag not go to reach into it, I worked at the federal law enforcement training center... I have been on roles with air marshalls in real planes, and Im telling you, pretending it was scarey enough... the reality is , the guy was warned at least 3 times that they would shoot... they did their job, they shot to kill... thats what they were trained to do and regardless that the aftermath shows he didnt have a bomb, the air marshalls had to believe him when he said he had one when combined with his erratic behavior... Hell walk into any airport, there are signs everywhere, that all threats are treated serious and it is a federal offence... I had dinner last night with one of the paramedics responding to the scene. According to him, the guy and his wife had boarded the plane, the man became highly emotional and left the plane, then reboarded, more emotional interaction with his wife and he again left the plane, he reboarded a third time and was "in a total freak state". He then stated that he had a bomb and was going to "blow everybody up". He now exits the plane a third time and is confronted by by air marshalls and shot. From what we know, I support the air marshalls decisions in this case (but not the whole TSA dog and pony show) The reason I'm responding to your post is you worked with the marshalls. The paramedic told me he had a 4-5 inch exit wound on his back. I am astounded that the ammo they use on flights have this much penetrating power. I would have thought something like a jacketed hollow point or perhaps even a glaser would be most appropriate on inflight aircraft. Do you know what ammo they use?----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #202 December 9, 2005 <> - No it's not. At best it's the work of your media. Terrorism has been around for yonks but it's only after America gets its first bigy (11/9) that the world is s'posed to take notice. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #203 December 9, 2005 Quoterefusing to listen to police orders doesn't get you shot in this country Yes it does! They did it in the tube if you can remember that far back. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #204 December 9, 2005 QuoteSo would it have been better for them to believe the guy had a mental problem and allow him to detonate a bomp and kill thousands of people? He did not have a bomb! Yes, it would have been better to assume he did not have one. The chances were so slim that he had one. If we keep killing the suspects at this rate, we will end up killing more than we save. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #205 December 9, 2005 <> - That's debatable (at the moment) we dont know if the cops gave any orders that were heard by the victim. That's what an inquiry will try to find out...... (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #206 December 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuote> this started out as a silly theory. You don't want to throw out a "The wife hit the lawsuit lottery jackpot" just for conversation's sake. People will get all bent out of shape, call you insensitive and start the personal attacks. Should be OK in this case. The husband is dead and will not be able to shamelessly use his wife to further his own agenda.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #207 December 9, 2005 Quote<> - No it's not. At best it's the work of your media. Terrorism has been around for yonks but it's only after America gets its first bigy (11/9) that the world is s'posed to take notice. You are so right. The Brits lived with the IRA for years. Even when they were blowing up Manchester while I was working there, we never got so paranoid about them trying to blow us up. It was like , ho hum the Arndale center is closed today due to a bomb threat, I'll do my shopping there tomorrow. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #208 December 9, 2005 Quote<> - No it's not. At best it's the work of your media. Terrorism has been around for yonks but it's only after America gets its first bigy (11/9) that the world is s'posed to take notice. lets not forget how the irish americans were allowed to fund the IRA in the 70's and 80's not too bothered about stopping terrorism then where they.... but since 11/9.... they seemed to have changed their tune a little________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites speedy 0 #209 December 9, 2005 Quotewe dont know if the cops gave any orders that were heard by the victim So in Britain they are prepared to shoot deaf people for not following orders as well. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #210 December 9, 2005 See, at the moment, from the information that is in the public domain - we just dont know what really happened. It certainly seems like a major fuck up and those policemen appear to have done wrong (big time). I dont know why they opened fire. I sure am glad that I'm not them but even more glad that I'm not the victim (or his poor family). It would appear that that gezza did nothing wrong and paiid the price for the current terrorist hype.... It's a fucked up world and no mistake. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gmanpilot 0 #211 December 9, 2005 QuoteThe paramedic told me he had a 4-5 inch exit wound on his back. I am astounded that the ammo they use on flights have this much penetrating power. You're not the first one to make that observation. An exit wound like that indicates that not only did it suck for him, but that it would have sucked for the truly innocent pax who could have been standing or sitting behind him. Can you say...overkill._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #212 December 10, 2005 <thousands of people?>> What size was his bag? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,089 #213 December 10, 2005 >and if he is not accountable for himself then who is? Sometimes no one is. Suppose a man is running down the airport terminal, cops tell him to "Freeze right now!" he stops and reaches into his jacket and they shoot him - and it turns out he was deaf and reaching for his ticket? Who is accountable there? Mental illness is a serious problem for a lot of americans. Some are never responsible for their own actions; these people are generally supervised 24/7. Some are OK 99.9% of the time, and must be careful to avoid situations/places where their illness can get them injured or shot (or can bring on a seizure/attack.) Some are OK when under treatment, and can live reasonably normal lives. But then sometimes something like this happens. It's not the officer's fault for shooting someone in that situation; that's what they are trained to do. Nor is it the fault of the person who has lost his mind, if that is indeed what happened. Hopefully people will learn from this so that we have a better chance to avoid situations like this in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Michele 1 #214 December 10, 2005 Lisa Marie, I'm just answering without quoting because I'm a bit too lazy to go back a page. You indicated your belief that there are extreme highs which take place in a bipolar person. That's not always the case, although that's what is commonly believed. There are many actions which can be considered "manic" (the original term was "manic depressive"), and they include extravagant expenditure, working without sleep, tight, exclusionary focus (not realizing days have gone by without eating or washing, for example), and agitiation to the extreme. By that I mean everything pisses someone off - the air gets to be too heavy, the phone is too loud, et cetera - and an explosion of self will generally take place. Brain diseases like depression and bipolar are widely misunderstood by most people who haven't seen it/experienced it/loved someone with it...and often, misunderstood by those people, as well. They can be easily - albeit deadly - hidden from public view (I did that for years) and are often misdiagnosed at the beginning (most bipolars are misdiagnosed as despressives in the initial stages), and medication is a must for them. It is also the sufferer's responsibility to manage their illness so as to not present an episode and endanger people (or themselves) around them...and that's a tough, tough thing to do. Anyway, I just wanted to add a little info to the post... I still think that given the circumstances which have been reported, the officers did the right thing. It was a clean shoot, and sadly, they will have to live with it for the rest of their lives...as will his wife...and all their families. It's a terrible situation from any perspective it's looked at. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #215 December 10, 2005 Quote<thousands of people?>> What size was his bag? How much jet fuel does a modern passenger jet hold? If they were at the terminal, how many were lined up right next to each other? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #216 December 10, 2005 and then there are the gas mains near by.... the explosion could have travelled down those to the city.... then the whole city could have gone up... might even have taken out the next city too... god, this could have been a national disaster thank god he was shot, you can't take chances these days________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #217 December 10, 2005 Quoteand then there are the gas mains near by.... the explosion could have travelled down those to the city.... then the whole city could have gone up... might even have taken out the next city too... god, this could have been a national disaster thank god he was shot, you can't take chances these days You can make smartass remarks if you want, but detonating an explosive device over a few thousand pounds of jet fuel is rarely a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #218 December 10, 2005 I dont know what they use in the field, I know as role-players we used 9mm that were fixed to shoot simunitions (sp) they traveled approx 425 ft per sec and were basically a soap filled plastic that was fitted to a bullet casing ...any other weapons we used in scenes were not loaded nor could they be as far as I knew. I know nothing about the ballistics of bullets or penetration... I find it interesting though, and would like to know how far away they were when they shot, I keep reading different things... Billvon... I see your point, like always but I still feel that the moment he went ballistic and started saying he had a bomb he was guilty, now if he survived would he be found guilty? Who knows... maybe this might be a wake up call for those who love or are close to severely incapicitated (sp) people... if because of his illness he was not at fault then there should have been someone "taking care of him" who could be considered at fault. Whats the likelyhood that one day of missed medication of someone with moderate to sever bi-polar would go on a manic episode? Oh and we did non-complient scenes where we were to resist arrest, there were several that included hearing impaired or disabled people... since "ignoring" a agent could be construed as resisting arrest and was always one that they would be faced with... ie... me reading a book, walking, being told to stop , stop , etc but making no notice of the agents... they would work around to the front to get attention ... police and stop are similar in most languages, and if a gun is in your face and you dont stop... whose fault? Federal agents are taught to deal with these things, and granted some divisions are better then others, but the marshalls have one of the best, next to ATF and NCIS ... A few have mentioned shooting a leg or an arm... think about how hard that is depending on the situations that cops face not to mention the size of arms and legs compared to the chest... they go to shoot a arm or leg, that guy could have detonated his bomb, think of the different reasons people have weapons drawn on them, they are life or death situations where shooting an extremity is not only stupid but probably going to make the situation worse...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #219 December 10, 2005 http://www.pro-promotions.com/img/merch/god-big.gif________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #220 December 10, 2005 Can you convert that to JPEG so I can have a new avatar please lolSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,089 #221 December 10, 2005 >Billvon... I see your point, like always but I still feel that the moment >he went ballistic and started saying he had a bomb he was guilty . . You can't be guilty if you are not in control of what you are doing, or do not understand what's going on due to dementia or disability. Is a one year old guilty of murder if he plays with a gun he found and shoots his mother? >if because of his illness he was not at fault then there should have >been someone "taking care of him" who could be considered at fault. That may well be true. Or his disease may have progressed without the caretaker noticing it. Hopefully, as you mentioned, this will lead people on both sides of the equation (cops and people with mental illnesses) to be more careful about such things. >Whats the likelyhood that one day of missed medication of someone > with moderate to sever bi-polar would go on a manic episode? Low - which is why this very seldom happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites artistcalledian 0 #222 December 10, 2005 QuoteCan you convert that to JPEG so I can have a new avatar please lol i don't know how ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lindsey 0 #223 December 10, 2005 ... even if he had bi-polar , this doesnt seem like a bi-polar manic attack... No it doesn't. Not at all. A person in a manic state doesn't walk unnoticed through an airport and then all the sudden claim to have a bomb. Just doesn't work that way. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lisamariewillbe 1 #224 December 10, 2005 Thats what I thought, granted Im sure that behavior could be possible with other mental illness's.... is it only the wife stating he has problems or have we heard things from doctors?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,117 #225 December 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory. You don't want to take credit for what you just stated above? Is that just your "unofficial" theory? The official one will come out later? If you tell me what my theory is, I will defend it, or not, as appropriate. I'd just like to hear some facts about what the guy said that are not in dispute.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Next Page 9 of 10 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
speedy 0 #207 December 9, 2005 Quote<> - No it's not. At best it's the work of your media. Terrorism has been around for yonks but it's only after America gets its first bigy (11/9) that the world is s'posed to take notice. You are so right. The Brits lived with the IRA for years. Even when they were blowing up Manchester while I was working there, we never got so paranoid about them trying to blow us up. It was like , ho hum the Arndale center is closed today due to a bomb threat, I'll do my shopping there tomorrow. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #208 December 9, 2005 Quote<> - No it's not. At best it's the work of your media. Terrorism has been around for yonks but it's only after America gets its first bigy (11/9) that the world is s'posed to take notice. lets not forget how the irish americans were allowed to fund the IRA in the 70's and 80's not too bothered about stopping terrorism then where they.... but since 11/9.... they seemed to have changed their tune a little________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
speedy 0 #209 December 9, 2005 Quotewe dont know if the cops gave any orders that were heard by the victim So in Britain they are prepared to shoot deaf people for not following orders as well. Dave Fallschirmsport Marl Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #210 December 9, 2005 See, at the moment, from the information that is in the public domain - we just dont know what really happened. It certainly seems like a major fuck up and those policemen appear to have done wrong (big time). I dont know why they opened fire. I sure am glad that I'm not them but even more glad that I'm not the victim (or his poor family). It would appear that that gezza did nothing wrong and paiid the price for the current terrorist hype.... It's a fucked up world and no mistake. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #211 December 9, 2005 QuoteThe paramedic told me he had a 4-5 inch exit wound on his back. I am astounded that the ammo they use on flights have this much penetrating power. You're not the first one to make that observation. An exit wound like that indicates that not only did it suck for him, but that it would have sucked for the truly innocent pax who could have been standing or sitting behind him. Can you say...overkill._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #212 December 10, 2005 <thousands of people?>> What size was his bag? (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #213 December 10, 2005 >and if he is not accountable for himself then who is? Sometimes no one is. Suppose a man is running down the airport terminal, cops tell him to "Freeze right now!" he stops and reaches into his jacket and they shoot him - and it turns out he was deaf and reaching for his ticket? Who is accountable there? Mental illness is a serious problem for a lot of americans. Some are never responsible for their own actions; these people are generally supervised 24/7. Some are OK 99.9% of the time, and must be careful to avoid situations/places where their illness can get them injured or shot (or can bring on a seizure/attack.) Some are OK when under treatment, and can live reasonably normal lives. But then sometimes something like this happens. It's not the officer's fault for shooting someone in that situation; that's what they are trained to do. Nor is it the fault of the person who has lost his mind, if that is indeed what happened. Hopefully people will learn from this so that we have a better chance to avoid situations like this in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #214 December 10, 2005 Lisa Marie, I'm just answering without quoting because I'm a bit too lazy to go back a page. You indicated your belief that there are extreme highs which take place in a bipolar person. That's not always the case, although that's what is commonly believed. There are many actions which can be considered "manic" (the original term was "manic depressive"), and they include extravagant expenditure, working without sleep, tight, exclusionary focus (not realizing days have gone by without eating or washing, for example), and agitiation to the extreme. By that I mean everything pisses someone off - the air gets to be too heavy, the phone is too loud, et cetera - and an explosion of self will generally take place. Brain diseases like depression and bipolar are widely misunderstood by most people who haven't seen it/experienced it/loved someone with it...and often, misunderstood by those people, as well. They can be easily - albeit deadly - hidden from public view (I did that for years) and are often misdiagnosed at the beginning (most bipolars are misdiagnosed as despressives in the initial stages), and medication is a must for them. It is also the sufferer's responsibility to manage their illness so as to not present an episode and endanger people (or themselves) around them...and that's a tough, tough thing to do. Anyway, I just wanted to add a little info to the post... I still think that given the circumstances which have been reported, the officers did the right thing. It was a clean shoot, and sadly, they will have to live with it for the rest of their lives...as will his wife...and all their families. It's a terrible situation from any perspective it's looked at. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #215 December 10, 2005 Quote<thousands of people?>> What size was his bag? How much jet fuel does a modern passenger jet hold? If they were at the terminal, how many were lined up right next to each other? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #216 December 10, 2005 and then there are the gas mains near by.... the explosion could have travelled down those to the city.... then the whole city could have gone up... might even have taken out the next city too... god, this could have been a national disaster thank god he was shot, you can't take chances these days________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #217 December 10, 2005 Quoteand then there are the gas mains near by.... the explosion could have travelled down those to the city.... then the whole city could have gone up... might even have taken out the next city too... god, this could have been a national disaster thank god he was shot, you can't take chances these days You can make smartass remarks if you want, but detonating an explosive device over a few thousand pounds of jet fuel is rarely a good thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #218 December 10, 2005 I dont know what they use in the field, I know as role-players we used 9mm that were fixed to shoot simunitions (sp) they traveled approx 425 ft per sec and were basically a soap filled plastic that was fitted to a bullet casing ...any other weapons we used in scenes were not loaded nor could they be as far as I knew. I know nothing about the ballistics of bullets or penetration... I find it interesting though, and would like to know how far away they were when they shot, I keep reading different things... Billvon... I see your point, like always but I still feel that the moment he went ballistic and started saying he had a bomb he was guilty, now if he survived would he be found guilty? Who knows... maybe this might be a wake up call for those who love or are close to severely incapicitated (sp) people... if because of his illness he was not at fault then there should have been someone "taking care of him" who could be considered at fault. Whats the likelyhood that one day of missed medication of someone with moderate to sever bi-polar would go on a manic episode? Oh and we did non-complient scenes where we were to resist arrest, there were several that included hearing impaired or disabled people... since "ignoring" a agent could be construed as resisting arrest and was always one that they would be faced with... ie... me reading a book, walking, being told to stop , stop , etc but making no notice of the agents... they would work around to the front to get attention ... police and stop are similar in most languages, and if a gun is in your face and you dont stop... whose fault? Federal agents are taught to deal with these things, and granted some divisions are better then others, but the marshalls have one of the best, next to ATF and NCIS ... A few have mentioned shooting a leg or an arm... think about how hard that is depending on the situations that cops face not to mention the size of arms and legs compared to the chest... they go to shoot a arm or leg, that guy could have detonated his bomb, think of the different reasons people have weapons drawn on them, they are life or death situations where shooting an extremity is not only stupid but probably going to make the situation worse...Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #219 December 10, 2005 http://www.pro-promotions.com/img/merch/god-big.gif________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #220 December 10, 2005 Can you convert that to JPEG so I can have a new avatar please lolSudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,089 #221 December 10, 2005 >Billvon... I see your point, like always but I still feel that the moment >he went ballistic and started saying he had a bomb he was guilty . . You can't be guilty if you are not in control of what you are doing, or do not understand what's going on due to dementia or disability. Is a one year old guilty of murder if he plays with a gun he found and shoots his mother? >if because of his illness he was not at fault then there should have >been someone "taking care of him" who could be considered at fault. That may well be true. Or his disease may have progressed without the caretaker noticing it. Hopefully, as you mentioned, this will lead people on both sides of the equation (cops and people with mental illnesses) to be more careful about such things. >Whats the likelyhood that one day of missed medication of someone > with moderate to sever bi-polar would go on a manic episode? Low - which is why this very seldom happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #222 December 10, 2005 QuoteCan you convert that to JPEG so I can have a new avatar please lol i don't know how ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #223 December 10, 2005 ... even if he had bi-polar , this doesnt seem like a bi-polar manic attack... No it doesn't. Not at all. A person in a manic state doesn't walk unnoticed through an airport and then all the sudden claim to have a bomb. Just doesn't work that way. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #224 December 10, 2005 Thats what I thought, granted Im sure that behavior could be possible with other mental illness's.... is it only the wife stating he has problems or have we heard things from doctors?Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,117 #225 December 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteSeems to me that a lot depends on whether he really did say he had a bomb, or if that's just a CYA from the feds. I'm sure the truth will eventually get out. Until then, your conspiracy theories will prosper. I haven't offered a theory. You don't want to take credit for what you just stated above? Is that just your "unofficial" theory? The official one will come out later? If you tell me what my theory is, I will defend it, or not, as appropriate. I'd just like to hear some facts about what the guy said that are not in dispute.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
