Phosphorous in Fallujah (video)

[kallend 2,146]

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They said what their reasons were, then later said that they really had other reasons. That's called lying. You seem to be ok with that, that's your prerogative. But at least admit that they lied and you support their lies.

Huh? You want to accuse others of manipulations, read what you're posting! Holy cow!

Not 'other reasons', 'additional' reasons! <- Billvon: response to above message

Bush DID give us the many other ('real' in your words) reasons! The media was more interested in covering WMD's than human rights and political corruption. Blame them!

Jeff

Ahem..

The Administration used 9/11 as justification too. Claimed Atta met with Iraqi agents in Prague. That also turned out to be false. And then Cheney lied about it on TV.

I think you have been taken in by the White House propaganda machine.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jeiber 0]

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I think you have been taken in by the White House propaganda machine.

I have no idea how you jump to that conclusion... Where did I say politicians never lied? Where did I say that our intelligence agencies never made a mistake?

You guys seem to think I'm happy with the way the war in Iraq has been run. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not. I do believe that Bush is leading our country in the right direction though, though he's made mistakes along the way.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[kallend 2,146]

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I think you have been taken in by the White House propaganda machine.

I have no idea how you jump to that conclusion... Where did I say politicians never lied? Where did I say that our intelligence agencies never made a mistake?

You guys seem to think I'm happy with the way the war in Iraq has been run. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not. I do believe that Bush is leading our country in the right direction though, though he's made mistakes along the way.

Jeff

It's obvious how I reached that conclusion; I read your posts. Maybe you should read the SOTU, Jan 2003.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,110]

>Bush DID give us the many other ('real' in your words) reasons!

Right. But claiming in retrospect that the war was not primarily to disarm Saddam Hussein is pretty revisionist.

> The
> media was more interested in covering WMD's than human rights
> and political corruption. Blame them!

So now we should blame the media for being an obvious tool of the right wing?

It's popular to blame the media and all, but they were reporting on Bush's speeches. Count the number of times he mentioned WMD's in his 2003 SOTU speech. Fully a third of his speech concerned Saddam's WMD threats. Here are a few snippets:

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Today, the gravest danger in the war on terror, the gravest danger facing America and the world, is outlaw regimes that seek and possess nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

These regimes could use such weapons for blackmail, terror and mass murder. They could also give or sell those weapons to terrorist allies, who would use them without the least hesitation.
. . . .

Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained.

Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other plans, this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known.

We will do everything in our power to make sure that that day never comes.
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The media was reporting what he said. Their only flaw was that they believed him.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Ah.. the often used SOTU speech given a full 2 months before the war began.That speech is commonly used by those seeking to cherrypick a speech and then present it as if it's the final authority on why we went to war. Sad really.

Here's what Bush said a full 2 months later after gathering more evidence and engaging in more discussions with the CIA, the FBI and other intel sources. This speech has much more validity because it was the final speech before the bombs started to drop.

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President Bush Addresses the Nation
The Oval Office


10:16 P.M. EST

THE PRESIDENT: My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war. These are opening stages of what will be a broad and concerted campaign. More than 35 countries are giving crucial support -- from the use of naval and air bases, to help with intelligence and logistics, to the deployment of combat units. Every nation in this coalition has chosen to bear the duty and share the honor of serving in our common defense.

To all the men and women of the United States Armed Forces now in the Middle East, the peace of a troubled world and the hopes of an oppressed people now depend on you. That trust is well placed.

The enemies you confront will come to know your skill and bravery. The people you liberate will witness the honorable and decent spirit of the American military. In this conflict, America faces an enemy who has no regard for conventions of war or rules of morality. Saddam Hussein has placed Iraqi troops and equipment in civilian areas, attempting to use innocent men, women and children as shields for his own military -- a final atrocity against his people.

I want Americans and all the world to know that coalition forces will make every effort to spare innocent civilians from harm. A campaign on the harsh terrain of a nation as large as California could be longer and more difficult than some predict. And helping Iraqis achieve a united, stable and free country will require our sustained commitment.

We come to Iraq with respect for its citizens, for their great civilization and for the religious faiths they practice. We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people.

I know that the families of our military are praying that all those who serve will return safely and soon. Millions of Americans are praying with you for the safety of your loved ones and for the protection of the innocent. For your sacrifice, you have the gratitude and respect of the American people. And you can know that our forces will be coming home as soon as their work is done.

Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly -- yet, our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. We will meet that threat now, with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of fire fighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities.

Now that conflict has come, the only way to limit its duration is to apply decisive force. And I assure you, this will not be a campaign of half measures, and we will accept no outcome but victory.


My fellow citizens, the dangers to our country and the world will be overcome. We will pass through this time of peril and carry on the work of peace. We will defend our freedom. We will bring freedom to others and we will prevail.

May God bless our country and all who defend her.

Note all the reasons given with only one mention of WMDs. Note also that the President says the conflict will be longer than many predict.

[kallend 2,146]

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***President Bush Addresses the Nation
The Oval Office


10:16 P.M. EST

THE PRESIDENT: My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger.

What arms were these? What danger was that again? What threat had Iraq made?

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On my orders, coalition forces have begun striking selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability to wage war.

What ability did he have, exactly?

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I want Americans and all the world to know that coalition forces will make every effort to spare innocent civilians from harm.

Great job, George. How many died?

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We come to Iraq with respect for its citizens, for their great civilization and for the religious faiths they practice. We have no ambition in Iraq, except to remove a threat and restore control of that country to its own people.

Pity we killed tens of thousands of them while giving them such great respect. And what was that threat again?

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Our nation enters this conflict reluctantly

Ha ha. Good one.

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-- yet, our purpose is sure. The people of the United States and our friends and allies will not live at the mercy of an outlaw regime that threatens the peace with weapons of mass murder. We will meet that threat now, with our Army, Air Force, Navy, Coast Guard and Marines, so that we do not have to meet it later with armies of fire fighters and police and doctors on the streets of our cities.

There he goes again. What was the threat to the streets of our cities?

Feeble attempt at diversion, GM. This speech was made when the lies were no longer needed, the troops were in action already. The war had already been sold to the people on false pretenses, and everyone knows it, even you.

The Admin. kept up the WMD drumbeat until it became an embarrassment to them. "We know where they are", "We found them"....

They (especially Cheney) kept up the 9/11 connection myth even after the Prague story was totally debunked, then he lied about ever having made the claim.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Do we have to go over this again? Apparently you have lost your copy of the Robb-Silberman Report. Here ya go.

http://www.wmd.gov/report/report.html

[Faber 0]

Its disturbing,doubbeltmoral and what ever word i can find.

Then add that USA as the morden world now DEC 05 has told their troops not to use violence and torture against prissoners.

I like all the good things US does to make this earth a better place but if it cant be done whith out the weappons the enemy we´re fighting is using,which were against,them WE (allied) aint better than our enemys...

Sometimes it makes people wonder.. who´s good and who´s bad?
And sometimes i understand that thourght..

I cant belive that we as a morden world want to DICTATE DEMOCRACY out in the world,who are we to do so and aint it against what we fight for?

Just a few thourghts,flame away

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[kallend 2,146]

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Do we have to go over this again? Apparently you have lost your copy of the Robb-Silberman Report. Here ya go.

http://www.wmd.gov/report/report.html

Falsehoods are falsehoods. Nothing in the March 03 speech retracted a single falsehood in the SOTU. He repeated in generalities the 9/11 - Iraq claim, and the WMD claim, both of which are now debunked.

Your hero is a liar who has squandered just about all of the USA's credibility as the "White Hat" of this world and plunged the US into being the largest debtor nation in history. I bet you're proud.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[nathaniel 0]

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Your hero is a liar who has squandered just about all of the USA's credibility as the "White Hat" of this world and plunged the US into being the largest debtor nation in history. I bet you're proud.

But hey the housing market hasn't crashed yet!

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Gravitymaster 0]

So you haven't read the Robb-Silberman Report, huh? Oh well, ignorance is bliss.

[kallend 2,146]

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So you haven't read the Robb-Silberman Report, huh? Oh well, ignorance is bliss.

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our mission is to investigate the reasons why the Intelligence Community's pre-war assessments were so different from what the Iraq Survey Group found after the war. Second, we were not authorized to investigate how policymakers used the intelligence assessments they received from the Intelligence Community.

Neither did they ask why Bush ignored the Blix and ElBaradei reports (which turned out to be accurate).

Neither did they investigate the Iraq- 9/11 myth propagated by Bush and Cheney.

"We know where they are" == false
"We found them" == false

"False" does not equal "true" even if the Bush administration says it does.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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So you haven't read the Robb-Silberman Report, huh? Oh well, ignorance is bliss.

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our mission is to investigate the reasons why the Intelligence Community's pre-war assessments were so different from what the Iraq Survey Group found after the war. Second, we were not authorized to investigate how policymakers used the intelligence assessments they received from the Intelligence Community.

Neither did they ask why Bush ignored the Blix and ElBaradei reports (which turned out to be accurate).

Neither did they investigate the Iraq- 9/11 myth propagated by Bush and Cheney.

"We know where they are" == false
"We found them" == false

"False" does not equal "true" even if the Bush administration says it does.

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The Robb-Silberman Commission Reported That The Intelligence In The PDB Was Not "Markedly Different" Than The Intelligence Given To Congress In The NIE. "It was not that the intelligence was markedly different. Rather, it was that the PDBs and SEIBs, with their attention-grabbing headlines and drumbeat of repetition, left an impression of many corroborating reports where in fact there were very few sources. And in other instances, intelligence suggesting the existence of weapons programs was conveyed to senior policymakers, but later information casting doubt upon the validity of that intelligence was not." (Charles S. Robb And Laurence H. Silberman, The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction, 3/31/05, p. 14)

The Robb-Silberman Commission Found The PDB To Contain Similar Intelligence In "More Alarmist" And "Less Nuanced" Language. "As problematic as the October 2002 NIE was, it was not the Community's biggest analytic failure on Iraq. Even more misleading was the river of intelligence that flowed from the CIA to top policymakers over long periods of time in the President's Daily Brief (PDB) and in its more widely distributed companion, the Senior Executive Intelligence Brief (SEIB). These daily reports were, if anything, more alarmist and less nuanced than the NIE." (Charles S. Robb And Laurence H. Silberman, The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction, 3/31/05, p. 14)

Since the conversation has, as usual, sunk to your usual "Bush Lied" rant I'm done.

[kallend 2,146]

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Since the conversation has, as usual, sunk to your usual "Bush Lied" rant I'm done.

Who was right? Blix and Elbaradei, or Bush? It's not like Blix's report was withheld from the White House.

The conflicting intel was there for ALL of us to see. Even you. Even Bush.

Read THIS

and THIS

edited for brevity

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.