9/11 hijackers - brave or not?

[artistcalledian 0]

I was in a discussion the other day, and we were talking about 9/11. A mate of mine suggested that the hijackers where brave people, i initially said they were cowards... but then i thought "why were they cowards" and i couldn't come up with a reason

my mates argument was that to be prepaird to die for what you believe in, can't be an act of cowardice, but an act of bravery.

He made no comment on whether it was right or wrong, evil or not.. but solely on cowardice or bravery

anybody else think they were cowards ?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[dorbie 0]

Quote

I was in a discussion the other day, and we were talking about 9/11. A mate of mine suggested that the hijackers where brave people, i initially said they were cowards... but then i thought "why were they cowards" and i couldn't come up with a reason

my mates argument was that to be prepaird to die for what you believe in, can't be an act of cowardice, but an act of bravery.

He made no comment on whether it was right or wrong, evil or not.. but solely on cowardice or bravery

anybody else think they were cowards ?

How brave do you have to be to die if you're convinced there's a harem of virgins waiting for you in paradise?

[billvon 3,120]

?? An odd question. A guy who slashes at cops with a broken bottle might be described by some as 'brave', and in a certain sense he is. But I still have zero respect for him. It's like calling a rapist sexy. Maybe he is to some people, but it's a very odd use of the word.

[billvon 3,120]

>How brave do you have to be to die if you're convinced there's a
>harem of virgins waiting for you in paradise?

About as brave as you have to be to die if you're convinced you're going to meet St. Peter and all your departed friends and family in a wondrous paradise.

[peregrinerose 0]

It takes more balls than I have (barring the fact I'm a girl) to be a suicide bomber, so sure, it is brave. I disagree with the motivations, abhorr the entire concept of suicide bombers, but that doesn't mean they are cowards just because I disagree with them.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

About as brave as you have to be to die if you're convinced you're going to meet St. Peter and all your departed friends and family in a wondrous paradise.

You beat me to saying this very thing

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

It takes more balls than I have (barring the fact I'm a girl) to be a suicide bomber, so sure, it is brave. I disagree with the motivations, abhorr the entire concept of suicide bombers, but that doesn't mean they are cowards just because I disagree with them.

i've thought about that myself in the current climate of suicide bombings... would i / could i kill myself in the name of fighting for something, or a war, that i believe in... and the answer is.... nope

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[flyangel2 2]

I think if I knew my death would be quick, I'd be able to die for some thing I believe in.

But, if I knew I was going to suffer lots of pain.........count me out. I'm a big baby.

So to answer your question, no they were not brave, because their deaths were quick and with out a lot of pain to themselves.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

I think if I knew my death would be quick, I'd be able to die for some thing I believe in.

But, if I knew I was going to suffer lots of pain.........count me out. I'm a big baby.

So to answer your question, no they were not brave, because their deaths were quick and with out a lot of pain to themselves.

i see your point, i agree with what you say. i happen to think they were twisted beyond belief ..... going to a room with 40 virgins in? not a chance... going straight to the big furnace downstairs... yep !

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

going to a room with 40 virgins in? not a chance... going straight to the big furnace downstairs... yep !

I do my best not to make statements like that. Nobody ever dubbed me God, so I just don't have that right. For all I know, I'm the one that has screwed up morals and they are right. "Right" is purely a matter of perspective.

I agree that a fast death is braver than a tortuous one, but also any death in the support of one's beliefs is braver than I can be.

How many people have given their lives for their friends/comrades in previous wars from the US and have earned medals for their bravery? Are they any less brave if their demise was faster, or more brave if slower?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[kelpdiver 2]

since only a handful of the 19 knew they were going to die as part of the plan, can't give them the brave tag for that aspect.

For attacking a soft target with box cutters, no credit either. Up till then, the notion was always the hijackers intended to land the plane somewhere nasty, but intact. Minimized resistance.

[quade 4]

I think in order to really give them the "brave" or "coward" title, you'd have to know their motivations and, of course, either agree or disagree with them.

Understand that there are those in the middle-east that believe it is cowardice to have computer controlled guided missiles do the fighting while the operator sits in relative comfort and out of reach beyond the horizon.

I doubt that many Americans would consider submariners or jet pilots to be cowards and there are quite a few that would consider them to be heros.

I think your mate might actually be on to something though because certainly in the mind of the hijackers they were going to be doing the right thing for their people and probably did consider themselves to be heros, martyrs and quite brave.

Not that I agree with this in any way. I'm just restating what I've said many times in that the "evil" people almost always think "they" are doing the right thing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jkm2500 0]

the hijackers that took part in 9/11 were not brave, they were cowards. They were not brave enough to stand up for what is right....humanity. They were willing to lay down their lives to kill thousands, that is lunacy. Bravery is a commendation that I would give to the following people: http://www.mishalov.com/Citations.html
http://www.mishalov.com/Living_MoH_Recipients.html

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[billvon 3,120]

>They were willing to lay down their lives to kill thousands, that is lunacy.

Yet we call Paul Tibbets a hero for killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people because he was on our side. A lot depends at what side you look at history from.

Besides, it's not a question of lunacy or heroism. The question is bravery. A man who walks into certain death to do what he believes is right is brave. He may also be a lunatic. Or a villian. Those terms are NOT antonyms.

[artistcalledian 0]

Quote

the hijackers that took part in 9/11 were not brave, they were cowards. They were not brave enough to stand up for what is right....humanity. They were willing to lay down their lives to kill thousands, that is lunacy. Bravery is a commendation that I would give to the following people: http://www.mishalov.com/Citations.html
http://www.mishalov.com/Living_MoH_Recipients.html

you say those people are/were brave, yet they are people who killed others to be seen as brave? they fought with the intention of living, they didn't do something they knew would kill them, they did something that unfortunately killed them.

the suicide pilots knew they were going to die for what they believed in, you say they are not brave just becasue you don't agree with their cause?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[jkm2500 0]

Quote

Besides, it's not a question of lunacy or heroism. The question is bravery. A man who walks into certain death to do what he believes is right is brave. He may also be a lunatic. Or a villian. Those terms are NOT antonyms.

Its fine to think that they are brave because they did something that you would not do. I think that people that handle poisionous snakes are brave, its something that I would not do.

However, flying a plane into a building is suicide. Strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing it up is suicide. I do not think that people who commit suicide are brave. I think they are crazy.

So, now I think that it comes down to semantics. If thats the way you feel.

The primary purpose of the Armed Forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.

[billvon 3,120]

>However, flying a plane into a building is suicide.

Running into a hail of bullets is suicide. If you are a terrorist that makes you a lunatic. If you are a US Marine that makes you a hero. If you fly a 767 into a civilian target and face certain death you're a crazed terrorist. If you drop an atomic bomb on a civilian city, risking probable death (remember, this had never been done before) you're a brave hero - again, as long as you're on our side.

[ViperPilot 0]

They're 100% cowards. It's not brave to die what you believe in if it means killing thousands of innocent people.

[MC208B 0]

Would it have been "braver" to invade Japan and have ten times the casualties Bill? Would that have been "okay" with you?!?

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

It was a privilege in their culture to be the "chosen ones" to give their lives so that their families would receive millions of dollars and be taken care of for life.

_________________________________________

[SpeedRacer 1]

I don't believe suicide attackers (9/11 hijackers or Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bombers) are particularly brave. Here is why:

When you KNOW you're going to commit suicide attack, it's easy. Just push the button (or fly the plane into the building) and it's all over.

No more uncertainties in life. No more drudgery or conflict to slog through. You don't have to face sifting through all the real complexiites of life anymore. Everything is crystal clear and all quantities in your mind are defined, and you KNOW when it will be all over.

The brave are the people who slog through the difficulties of LIVING for a new world. Not the ones who don't have the balls to face that difficult & uncertain life, and instead take the quick & easy way out. As the song says, "suicide is painless."

Speed Racer
--------------------------------------------------

[Lefty 0]

Quote

I don't believe suicide attackers (9/11 hijackers or Palestinian or Iraqi suicide bombers) are particularly brave. Here is why:

When you KNOW you're going to commit suicide attack, it's easy. Just push the button (or fly the plane into the building) and it's all over.

No more uncertainties in life. No more drudgery or conflict to slog through. You don't have to face sifting through all the real complexiites of life anymore. Everything is crystal clear and all quantities in your mind are defined, and you KNOW when it will be all over.

The brave are the people who slog through the difficulties of LIVING for a new world. Not the ones who don't have the balls to face that difficult & uncertain life, and instead take the quick & easy way out. As the song says, "suicide is painless."

Ditto, well put.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[highfly 0]

Quote

i've thought about that myself in the current climate of suicide bombings... would i / could i kill myself in the name of fighting for something, or a war, that i believe in... and the answer is.... nope

I think if you have spent all your life in an Islamist system you are led to belive that you will go to heaven (or whatever they belive in) if you commit suicide.

I do belive that these people do not think about the after affects of what they do. They are aware of what will happen afterwards, but in a manner which suits themselves. IE "im gonna go to heaven"

I do honestly belive that these people are not only brave but also stupid.
I put myself in a postition where that I wonder if I seen someone crossing the road and they were to be hit by an oncoming vehicle, would I run out and push them to safety thus putting my own life in danger? No I wouldnt, not becuase Im not brave I wouldnt do it because it will have no impact upon my life.

Now if it was my own flesh and blood or friends I would run out and push them to safety, not becuse Im brave, but becuse Im loyal and I think this is the main difference.

These people are loyal to their cause not brave.

I do have respect for people that do what they belive in, but it certainly doesnt mean I beleve that they are right in what they are doing.

My .2 cents worth and thats Kiwi cents too.

www.myspace.com/durtymac

[billvon 3,120]

>It's not brave to die what you believe in if it means killing thousands of innocent people.

Right. It's only brave if you kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

[billvon 3,120]

> Would it have been "braver" to invade Japan and have ten times the casualties Bill?

If a German bomber pilot managed to drop a nuclear weapon on NYC in the waning days of the war, and managed to force us to accept a truce to end WWII, would you consider him brave as well?