kallend 2,148 #26 November 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have just provided abundant evidence that the statement in the first post of the thread was false. And at the same time, proved it to be true. Derek Many many people have been subject to reprisals for criticising the US government. Your statement was false and it still is. America is a great country, but that is not the reason.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #27 November 28, 2005 I'm amazed that you can continue to argue against what you yourself represent. What Hooknswoop said was in no way false, and you, Kallend, are one of the millions and millions of reasons why what he said was true. The government has tried some dirty tricks to stifle people's speech, which you've cited, but the fact that we know about those instances means that the government does not control the information flow and thus cannot limit our speech without some serious consequences.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #28 November 28, 2005 Apropos: --------------- Pentagon Expanding Its Domestic Surveillance Activity Fears of Post-9/11 Terrorism Spur Proposals for New Powers By Walter Pincus Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, November 27, 2005; Page A06 The Defense Department has expanded its programs aimed at gathering and analyzing intelligence within the United States, creating new agencies, adding personnel and seeking additional legal authority for domestic security activities in the post-9/11 world. The moves have taken place on several fronts. The White House is considering expanding the power of a little-known Pentagon agency called the Counterintelligence Field Activity, or CIFA, which was created three years ago. The proposal, made by a presidential commission, would transform CIFA from an office that coordinates Pentagon security efforts -- including protecting military facilities from attack -- to one that also has authority to investigate crimes within the United States such as treason, foreign or terrorist sabotage or even economic espionage. . . . . Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, said the data-sharing amendment would still give the Pentagon much greater access to the FBI's massive collection of data, including information on citizens not connected to terrorism or espionage. The measure, she said, "removes one of the few existing privacy protections against the creation of secret dossiers on Americans by government intelligence agencies." She said the Pentagon's "intelligence agencies are quietly expanding their domestic presence without any public debate." ---------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greybeard 0 #29 November 28, 2005 Gentelmen, I fear your respective age is showing. Not a soul here, whom had 'personal emotional investment' in the social activities of the 1960's, could be expected to niavely accept todays political scene as OK by any standards. "VE Get Too Soon, OLDT, and Too Late SMART"! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #30 November 28, 2005 QuoteI'm amazed that you can continue to argue against what you yourself represent. What Hooknswoop said was in no way false, and you, Kallend, are one of the millions and millions of reasons why what he said was true. The government has tried some dirty tricks to stifle people's speech, which you've cited, but the fact that we know about those instances means that the government does not control the information flow and thus cannot limit our speech without some serious consequences. You have absolutely no idea what the government knows about you and what they can do to harm you without your even being aware of it. Do you think all Nixons victims realized HE was the one that ordered their IRS audit? We know a few examples that received wide publicity, some of which I have cited. How many have gone undetected? Are you willing to bet that what I cited is the sum total? Just because I personally have not been shot or arrested is not proof that victimization by the government doesn't happen. The historical record of government abuse is long. Where were you during the McCarthy, Johnson and Nixon years?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #31 November 28, 2005 QuoteJust because I personally have not been shot or arrested is not proof that victimization by the government doesn't happen. No, it is proof that we can openly criticize the government. Like I said the US isn't perfect, but there are a lot of countries that you would have been shot or arrested for what you have said. All I am saying is that I think the US is a great country and one of the reasons is free speech. If you don't agree, that is OK. You can disagree as much as you like and that is great. Agree with me, disagree with me, express your opinion.Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #32 November 28, 2005 I just saw a post by someone about China and the USA, is this a kind of i love my country so much i'll start a post about how much i love my country?1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #33 November 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust because I personally have not been shot or arrested is not proof that victimization by the government doesn't happen. No, it is proof that we can openly criticize the government. "WE" are just low life on a skydiver forum. Tell your theory to Joseph Wilson, Bunnatine Greenhouse or Daniel Ellsberg.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greybeard 0 #34 November 28, 2005 Everyone agrees with you Hooknswoop.... This is the greatest country and civilization yet to grow from our species. I haven't been shot yet! Arrested, yeah. I have been subjected to several very strange and surreal predicaments, totaly unwarranted for any other reason than public and private dissent. Drop the 'blinders' and be aware of your total surroundings. Not paranoid, just aware. And try to be more understanding of the leasons current history has taught some. Think, pause..... Think some more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #35 November 29, 2005 QuoteNo, it is proof that we can openly criticize the government. Like I said the US isn't perfect, but there are a lot of countries that you would have been shot or arrested for what you have said. And this is the key distinction from a lot of other places. There is still the various sorts of dirty tricks and enemies lists, but the US Government can't openly sanction people for what they say. And I think that with each generation we get closer to that ideal. Citing Kent State misses the point. Freedom of assembly was shaky during Vietnam. Go back another few decades and cops beat up picketers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #36 November 29, 2005 QuoteBunnatine Greenhouse that can't be somebodies name surely !!!!!! bwahahahahahahaha... breath..... bwahahahahahaha________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #37 November 29, 2005 QuoteThink, pause..... Think some more. You misunderstand. Again, I know the US isn't perfect. I am well aware of it and I am routinely pissed to hear/read about some of the things that happen in the US. It is my opinion that one of the things that makes the US great is the right to free speech. That is all. Don't read into it anything else. I am not a tunnel-visioned, flag waving, love it or leave it type of person. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #38 November 29, 2005 Quote I just saw a post by someone about China and the USA, is this a kind of i love my country so much i'll start a post about how much i love my country? Nah, more of a random thought. Take it for what it's worth, that's all. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #39 November 29, 2005 >And try to be more understanding of the leasons current history has taught some. I think that a study of history shows that the US is a pretty good place to live, and a pretty good place to be if you want to complain about the government. Not the best, but far from the worst. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #40 November 29, 2005 QuoteI think that a study of history shows that the US is a pretty good place to live, and a pretty good place to be if you want to complain about the government. Not the best, but far from the worst. That's all I am saying. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #41 November 29, 2005 Quote>Not the best, but far from the worst. Which country, then, is the best in your mind, for you? Or is it more of a 'tier' thing, we are tied with 10 other countries for 1st? top 100? Just 'OK', but no big dif from a dozen others? How do you score it? Is it a rational, repeatable metric, or just based on how you 'feel' today, or how good a vacation you had last year in another country? or do you really, really like Andorra? Day to day life - I'd say a only few countries would score high in all the following categories - low/med/high (or a 5 or 7 level grading system) of ALL countries and these are all relative by definition (pick the best, pick the worst, scale everybody else in between). These would be the countries to want to emulate or live in. I believe the US is one of them. life expectancy availability of food general health income/purchasing power education freedoms security/safety control of crime acres/person - resource availability general long term health of the economy etc The problem is 'many people' only look at one category, and then take single anecdotes or incidents and claim WORST vs BEST - then the pissing contest starts. It's easy to put the self deprecating statement in there, but what does it mean? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #42 November 29, 2005 QuoteQuote>Not the best, but far from the worst. The problem is 'many people' only look at one category, and then take single anecdotes or incidents and claim WORST vs BEST - then the pissing contest starts. It's easy to put the self deprecating statement in there, but what does it mean? The 8 words before the part you quoted seemed to define the context for me. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #43 November 29, 2005 QuoteDay to day life - I'd say a only few countries would score high in all the following categories I thought the thread... and Billvon's quote in particular... were only about people's ability to speak out against the Govt. in the US without fear of reprisals. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #44 November 29, 2005 You and Livendie make the point. I saw a sparkly light and lost track of the thread for a moment. Now, we were talking about the need for AADs? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #45 November 29, 2005 QuoteNow, we were talking about the need for AADs? Dunno... I'm talking about a 1h drive home through rush hour traffic. Later! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greybeard 0 #46 November 29, 2005 There is definitely a very fine line. A very serious fine line. Speak out, beyond a point on the line, be subject to intense scrutiny. Perhaps subject to improper actions against you. However, a responsible society must protect itself at some given point on this line. The courage to stand this line, and the wisdom to define it, is what this 'Great American Experiment' is all about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,148 #47 November 29, 2005 QuoteQuoteNo, it is proof that we can openly criticize the government. Like I said the US isn't perfect, but there are a lot of countries that you would have been shot or arrested for what you have said. And this is the key distinction from a lot of other places. There is still the various sorts of dirty tricks and enemies lists, but the US Government can't openly sanction people for what they say. And I think that with each generation we get closer to that ideal. Citing Kent State misses the point. Freedom of assembly was shaky during Vietnam. Go back another few decades and cops beat up picketers. Some of us are still around from those times. Kent State was a BIG DEAL to my generation, and I don't think any of us have forgotten or are likely to forget.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #48 November 29, 2005 Quote Some of us are still around from those times. Kent State was a BIG DEAL to my generation, and I don't think any of us have forgotten or are likely to forget. Nor should you, or hesitate to bring it up and educate others about it. "Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it". Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
