kallend 2,175 #26 November 28, 2005 QuoteShould have, would have, could have...the point is, it's not hard to avoid that TFR. It may not be the easist location so that slack-jawed Kletus pilot can avoid the TFR, but any competant pilot will either find it easy to avoid the TFR by using triangulation or even better, not even coming close to the issue by not getting close to the boundary. Just because a TFR at a football game says 3 miles doesn't mean it's a good idea to fly 3.2 miles away. Common sense and basic airmanship will keep any pilot safe from some vipers lighting his ass up. Avoiding by not coming close is a cop out and you know it. You can avoid it by flying in a different state too, or by going by train. Since you are such a fine pilot, tell us the greatest and least margin of error in position of a fix determined by VOR triangulation, given the legally permitted errors of a VOR transmitter and receiver, at all points around a circle with arbitrary center and 30 miles in radius. Thank you.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sinker 0 #27 November 28, 2005 PITA: People Incinerating Tasty Animals. Kallend... fly your Mooney over yonder and demonstrate the for the fed'ral gommint the difficulty of avoiding those there TFRs... that'll show 'em... -the artist formerly known as sinker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ViperPilot 0 #28 November 28, 2005 QuoteAvoiding by not coming close is a cop out and you know it If I was joe blow flying a 172 and absolutely had to fly in that area, then yeah, it's not a big deal to give a 5 mile buffer so there's no question about if you're in or not. That's not a big deal. QuoteSince you are such a fine pilot Why yes I am, thanks! Quotetell us the greatest and least margin of error in position of a fix determined by VOR triangulation The margin of error required for VOR use is +/- 4 degrees. In most cases, if there is any error, it is around 1 degree. If you are flying so close to the TFR that even a 4 degree error in the VOR receiver puts you into the TFR, then that's your own damn fault for flying that close. On another hand if you really want to be safe while flying really close, use a GPS (the TFR gives you the coordinates of the center of the TFR). Then, don't fly w/in 30 miles of that coordinate. Simple for any good pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #29 November 28, 2005 Its upsetting when someone starts stepping on something you consider your own right. Just think about those of us that care about the actual rights laid out in the Bill of Rights and having those stepped on for many years. Then think about those who try to tell us that even though its stated simply in the Bill of Rights, we don't actually have that right. Man, the simple justice in your frustration is incredibly humorous.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #30 November 28, 2005 The man is holding us down I have flown around a lot off different controlled airspaces of all different shapes and sizes and always managed to remain clear if that was my goal. QuoteWhich means that NO certified flight instrument is capable of displaying the boundary, With a mapping GPS and a sectional, you can see where the TFR and you are to remain clear very easily. As a pilot, you are supposed be able to navigate. Mark the TFR on your map, pay attention to where you are, give yourself a buffer between you and the TFR and you won't have any problems. No big deal. Child's play for a competent pilot. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #31 November 28, 2005 QuoteThe man is holding us down I have flown around a lot off different controlled airspaces of all different shapes and sizes and always managed to remain clear if that was my goal. QuoteWhich means that NO certified flight instrument is capable of displaying the boundary, With a mapping GPS and a sectional, you can see where the TFR and you are to remain clear very easily. As a pilot, you are supposed be able to navigate. Mark the TFR on your map, pay attention to where you are, give yourself a buffer between you and the TFR and you won't have any problems. No big deal. Child's play for a competent pilot. Derek Someone else that didn't read what I wrote. My issue is with the way it has been implemented by FAA. AOPA has much the same issue, so I guess many, maybe most, pilots agree with me. Do you recall back in 2001 when FAA created restricted areas over nuclear power plants, but refused to identify where the power plants were? Same bureaucratic mindset.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #32 November 28, 2005 QuoteIts upsetting when someone starts stepping on something you consider your own right. Just think about those of us that care about the actual rights laid out in the Bill of Rights and having those stepped on for many years. Then think about those who try to tell us that even though its stated simply in the Bill of Rights, we don't actually have that right. Man, the simple justice in your frustration is incredibly humorous. Where did I say anything was my right? My issue is very simple - given a choice between implementing a restriction in a manner convenient to those doing the flying and doing it in a manner inconvenient to pilots, the bureaucrats decided to go the inconvenient route. Sure a pilot can manage it with a mapping GPS and a sectional on which she's drawn out the restricted area, but that doesn't in any way negate the statement I made in the first post.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #33 November 28, 2005 Quote Someone else that didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say it couldn't be done. No, I read it, you tried to imply that it couldn’t be done by saying; QuoteWhich means that NO certified flight instrument is capable of displaying the boundary, QuoteMy issue is with the way it has been implemented by FAA. AOPA has much the same issue, so I guess many, maybe most, pilots agree with me. They could have made it easier by making a larger TFR that would encompass the TFR they wanted but centered on a nav-aid. Of course, then pilots would be wining that the FAA made the TFR overly-large to unnecessarily center it on a nav-aid and they are ‘very capable of navigating around a TFR thankyouverymuch.’ Having delt with pilots for the past 2 ½ years, I have found most of them to be prima-donna cry-babies with inflated egos that start to whine if they aren’t treated like royalty. It would matter how the FAA did the TFR, they would whine about it. The cool pilots shrug their shoulders, go around the TFR like a professional, and it doesn't bother them. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #34 November 28, 2005 QuoteQuote Someone else that didn't read what I wrote. I didn't say it couldn't be done. No, I read it, you tried to imply that it couldn’t be done by saying; QuoteWhich means that NO certified flight instrument is capable of displaying the boundary, My statement was and is clear and unambiguous and refers to flight instruments and ATC radars. I neither wrote nor implied anything about pilots' abilities - you mistakenly inferred something that was not there.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #35 November 28, 2005 QuoteMy statement was and is clear and unambiguous and refers to flight instruments and ATC radars. I neither wrote nor implied anything about pilots' abilities - you mistakenly inferred something that was not there. The statement is misleading in that it make it appear that a pilot is being set up for failure because their instruments won't display the TFR. That only tells part of the story. As a pilot, you know that, but chose to to leave out the rest of the story. Would you prefer a larger TFR centered on a nav-aid? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #36 November 28, 2005 Hi Prof Is Eloy inside the red circle? At least they have a tunnel Reminds me of A dz in florida complainiing about a TFR shutting down their DZ when the pres was in their area (on a weekend). R.i.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #37 November 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteMy statement was and is clear and unambiguous and refers to flight instruments and ATC radars. I neither wrote nor implied anything about pilots' abilities - you mistakenly inferred something that was not there. The statement is misleading in that it make it appear that a pilot is being set up for failure because their instruments won't display the TFR. That only tells part of the story. As a pilot, you know that, but chose to to leave out the rest of the story. Would you prefer a larger TFR centered on a nav-aid? Derek I believe they are: If we look at the example of the Washington/Baltimore ADIZ, there have been some 2000 unintentional incursions into that in less than 3 years, and that IS charted accurately (it doesn't have to be drawn in on the chart by the pilot, like the TFRs do). That experience, and even longer experience with Class B airspace, shows very clearly that the more difficult we make the task of locating the precise boundaries of restricted airspace, the more likely it is to be violated. Despite what Viperpilot says, finding the precise boundaries by VOR triangulation is not an easy task while also flying the plane, looking out for traffic to "see and avoid", and keeping track of where you are with respect to boundaries hand drawn on your chart. FAA has actually simplified a lot of Class B space based on this experience, but seems to have forgotten its own lessons when creating TFRs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #38 November 28, 2005 Would you prefer a larger TFR centered on a nav-aid? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #39 November 28, 2005 QuoteWould you prefer a larger TFR centered on a nav-aid? Derek Yes, and it would hardly have to be any larger, since there is a navaid within a couple of miles of the center of the current TFR. Then it becomes a trivial DME exercise. Leaving a 5 mile buffer as ViperPilot suggests actually causes 36% more airspace to be effectively restricted.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #40 November 28, 2005 QuoteYes, and it would hardly have to be any larger, since there is a navaid within a couple of miles of the center of the current TFR. Then it becomes a trivial DME exercise. Leaving a 5 mile buffer as ViperPilot suggests actually causes 36% more airspace to be effectively restricted. How much % bigger would the TFR be if it covered the same area, plus the extra area to center it on the nav-aid? Do you think pilots would complain about the larger, nav-aid centered TFR? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #41 November 28, 2005 QuoteQuoteYes, and it would hardly have to be any larger, since there is a navaid within a couple of miles of the center of the current TFR. Then it becomes a trivial DME exercise. Leaving a 5 mile buffer as ViperPilot suggests actually causes 36% more airspace to be effectively restricted. How much % bigger would the TFR be if it covered the same area, plus the extra area to center it on the nav-aid? Do you think pilots would complain about the larger, nav-aid centered TFR? Derek I cannot predict what "pilots" complain about. Based on AOPA's statements, a lot of the problems concern identifying exactly where the restricted area boundaries are (not where drawn on a map, but while actually flying), so I suspect some sacrifice on the issue of size to facilitate navigation might be welcome. OTOH, not one study has been done by FAA, HSA or TSA to indicate that these 30 mile TFRs have any real impact on security anyway, or that light GA aircraft present a threat to security that warrants such TFRs.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ViperPilot 0 #42 November 28, 2005 QuoteMark the TFR on your map, pay attention to where you are, give yourself a buffer between you and the TFR and you won't have any problems. No big deal. Child's play for a competent pilot. Any more pilots want to get on the "we're not incompetent and can actually navigate bandwagon?" QuoteDespite what Viperpilot says, finding the precise boundaries by VOR triangulation is not an easy task while also flying the plane, looking out for traffic to "see and avoid", and keeping track of where you are with respect to boundaries hand drawn on your chart. Yeah, that might be hard...if you suck. As a pilot, you should be able to multi-task. Are you saying you can't triangulate your position w/ VORs while flying the plane? That's something everyone has to do just to get their damn license. This is cut and dry...if a pilot can't navigate around the TFR, then they're absolutely incompetent in at least one portion of aviation and do not deserve to be in the air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ViperPilot 0 #43 November 28, 2005 The 5 mile buffer thing is just a personal thing...it's not mandated, it's just simple common sense to not run the risk by flying on the very edge of the TFR. Secondly, what if they had centered it on a VOR and someone didn't have a DME? There's plenty of aircraft that don't, so what then? Oh yeah, they'd have to triangulate their position, silly me to expect a pilot to be able to do a simple task that a monkey could do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkF 0 #44 November 28, 2005 Hmmm too much beer.... Over the week beginning 1 December there will be new speed limits on some roads in an area 80km in diameter centered approximately 20km around about northish of Melbourne. Only a select few special traffic police will know what the new speed limits are and to which roads they apply, and will rigidly enforce them The first you will know about having broken them is when you're being punished for having done so. Did I get it...???Ooroo Mark F... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #45 November 28, 2005 How much % bigger would the TFR be if it covered the same area, plus the extra area to center it on the nav-aid? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #46 November 28, 2005 QuoteHow much % bigger would the TFR be if it covered the same area, plus the extra area to center it on the nav-aid? Derek You can eyeball the chart as well as I can.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,175 #47 November 28, 2005 QuoteThe 5 mile buffer thing is just a personal thing...it's not mandated, it's just simple common sense to not run the risk by flying on the very edge of the TFR. Secondly, what if they had centered it on a VOR and someone didn't have a DME? There's plenty of aircraft that don't, so what then? Oh yeah, they'd have to triangulate their position, silly me to expect a pilot to be able to do a simple task that a monkey could do. DMEs are readily available and certified for navigation. And ATC radars could keep track too, which, according to the FAA'S own rules they cannot do with the current method without a calibration flight test. Interesting that you choose to compare your skills with those of monkeys. Are the monkeys trained or does aerial navigation come naturally to them?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ViperPilot 0 #48 November 29, 2005 Yeah DMEs are readily available, there also many aircraft w/o them (in the SE GA crowd anyways). So those guys are forced to triangulate no matter what. QuoteATC radars could keep track too Yeah you're right, ATC can keep track. They can tell you how far you are from the center of town, not that hard. QuoteInteresting that you choose to compare your skills with those of monkeys. Are the monkeys trained or does aerial navigation come naturally to them? If people only knew how easy flying is...and yeah, a freakin monkey could be trained to triangulate using VORs, it's that easy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #49 November 29, 2005 QuoteYou can eyeball the chart as well as I can. QuoteLeaving a 5 mile buffer as ViperPilot suggests actually causes 36% more airspace to be effectively restricted. Funny that you are willing to throw out the number when it works in your favor, but can't be bothered if it doesn't. If you are complaining about a 36% increase in area a 5-mile buffer would create, then I'm sure you would complain about a similar increase in area caused by centering the TFR on a nav-aid. In other words, there is no pleasing you, you are going to complain regardless. Quote Don't you love these rules that there is no practical method of complying with other than not flying at all if you don't want to risk getting shot down by an F16? There is a practical method, mark the TFR on your map, know where you are at all times, and stay out of it. So not only is there a practical method of complying, there is a very simple one that pilots should employ on every flight. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 November 29, 2005 QuoteThere is a practical method, mark the TFR on your map, know where you are at all times, and stay out of it. So not only is there a practical method of complying, there is a very simple one that pilots should employ on every flight. That's what good pilots do right? What about just the weekend jocky? the ones that don't check for notam's, that don't file flight plans? The ones that drive down the highway right over the dropzone because they can't navigate a straight line so follow the highway, the ones that think that little airport in that little town is their private little country club and they should eject the skydiving operation because it 'annoys' them? What about them? Should we dumb it down even more if we can? Or at least train some monkeys to fly for them. I think good pilots are the greatest people, but the pool is diluted by the others for sure. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
