"Christmas" versus "Blue Laws"

[JohnRich 4]

Two news stories out of Boston, Massachusetts, today:

1) "Massachusetts' attorney general is launching an investigation into several supermarkets that stayed open on Thanksgiving in defiance of the state's Puritan-era Blue Laws. The laws were passed in the 1600s to keep colonists at home or in church on Sundays. Parts of the laws, such as the ban on Sunday liquor sales, have been repealed, but a prohibition on most stores doing business on Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year's Day, has not. " Source

2) "Boston set off a furor this week when it officially renamed a giant tree erected in a city park a "holiday tree" instead of a "Christmas tree." The move drew an angry response from Christian conservatives, including evangelist Jerry Falwell who heckled Boston officials and pressed the city to change the name back. "There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas," Falwell told Fox Television." Source

Now isn't that interesting. In story #1 the state wants to enforce a religious law against those who aren't religious, and in story #2, the same state defies religion in order to not offend those who aren't religious.

I think they need to make up their mind: Either repeal the blue laws, or call the holiday tree a "Christmas tree". One or the other - they can't have it both ways. Do they want separation of church and state, or not?

[Jimbo 0]

John, no mention of guns? That ought to make a few heads explode.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[TrophyHusband 0]

first off, all states should repeal all blue laws as that clearly using the law to impose things such as the sabbath on everybody whether you are religious or not.

second, its a fucking christmas tree. if you are going to erect it, call it what it is or don't put it up at all. unlike blue laws, calling a tree a christmas tree does not force people to conform to a religious doctrine that they don't believe in. it is after all the christmas season whether you believe in jesus or not.

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[kallend 2,175]

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first off, all states should repeal all blue laws as that clearly using the law to impose things such as the sabbath on everybody whether you are religious or not.

second, its a fucking christmas tree. if you are going to erect it, call it what it is or don't put it up at all. unlike blue laws, calling a tree a christmas tree does not force people to conform to a religious doctrine that they don't believe in. it is after all the christmas season whether you believe in jesus or not.

Why is it a Christmas Tree? Pagans brought trees indoors for decoration at Winter Solstice in pre-Christian times. Christians just borrowed the concept.

If you want to call it a Holiday Tree, why shouldn't you?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[sfc 1]

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first off, all states should repeal all blue laws as that clearly using the law to impose things such as the sabbath on everybody whether you are religious or not.

second, its a fucking christmas tree. if you are going to erect it, call it what it is or don't put it up at all. unlike blue laws, calling a tree a christmas tree does not force people to conform to a religious doctrine that they don't believe in. it is after all the christmas season whether you believe in jesus or not.

Why is it a Christmas Tree? Pagans brought trees indoors for decoration at Winter Solstice in pre-Christian times. Christians just borrowed the concept.

If you want to call it a Holiday Tree, why shouldn't you?

Agreed, in fact if the state paid for it or it is on public land that is maintained by the state then it should not be focused on christianity, holiday tree is much better. If the christians want a christmas tree they can erect their own outside their church.

[ViperPilot 0]

Lets all rub one out for political correctness! Yay!!!!!

[philh 0]

i found this on believe it or not a Christian web site called lasttrumpetminsitries.org

You, as a Christian, would want to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth, discerning good from evil.

The truth is that all of the customs of Christmas pre-date the birth of Jesus Christ, and a study of this would reveal that
Christmas in our day is a collection of traditions and practices taken from many cultures and nations.

The date of December 25th comes from Rome and was a celebration of the Italic god, Saturn, and the rebirth of the sun god.

This was done long before the birth of Jesus.

It was noted by the pre-Christian Romans and other pagans, that daylight began to increase after December 22nd, when they assumed that the sun god died.

These ancients believed that the sun god rose from the dead three days later as the new-born and venerable sun.

Thus, they figured that to be the reason for increasing daylight.

This was a cause for much wild excitement and celebration. Gift giving and merriment filled the temples of ancient Rome, as sacred priests of Saturn, called dendrophori, carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession.

In Germany, the evergreen tree was used in worship and celebration of the yule god, also in observance of the resurrected sun god.

[GTAVercetti 0]

1) Its not the attorney's job to repeal laws. He is just doing his job. Until the legislature changes them or they are found unconstitutional, it is his job to prosecute. Stupid law, but it is so.

and 2)

I am going to keep saying this until it hurts: What affect does the name of something in a public place have upon the way YOU celebrate Christmas? If your faith is strong, the answer should be none.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[shropshire 0]

My guess... If a person has nothing major to gripe about then the little things appear to be really BIG... Either that, or some folk have waaaay too much time on their hands

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[jakee 1,610]

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Now isn't that interesting. In story #1 the state wants to enforce a religious law against those who aren't religious, and in story #2, the same state defies religion in order to not offend those who aren't religious.

I think they need to make up their mind: Either repeal the blue laws, or call the holiday tree a "Christmas tree". One or the other - they can't have it both ways. Do they want separation of church and state, or not?

I agree with GTA, the two aren't really related. Do you think the AG should only enforce laws he agree's with?

And to TrophyHusband, I'll probably keep calling it a christmas tree 'cause thats what I'm used to but lets face it, it really has bugger all to do with Jesus.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[kbordson 8]

1- Blue Laws should be reversed. It shouldn't be the government that tells me when I can/can't buy rum, or if they feel they need to regulate it, that decision should not be based on whether I should be in church or not.

2- Christmas decorations... wavering thoughts on that one.
Basic theme of Christmas, reminding people to be nice, not really a "bad" thing However, it should not be sponsored by the government. If someone wants to decorate their desk, office - as long as it's not offensive to others in the area - let them. As an American society, we have become too PC and try too hard to make everything as "standardized" as possible by restricting freedoms.
More tolerance of other views is what needs to be emphasized. Which would mean that we should allow wiccan celebrations at equinox/solstice- even if that includes nude (gasp, faint) rituals (tongue in cheek). Seriously, though, there are demands for displaying of Christian belief holiday items, but that should mean that all religious beliefs deserve the same privledge. Not the same amount necessarily - cuz what if the local Buddha temple doesn't want to make large banners that say "Nirvana - it's more than just a rock band." But the freedom should be across the board...

[Jimbo 0]

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as long as it's not offensive to others in the area

Where do you draw the line at what is and what isn't offensive?

What if my Christmas decorations are offensive to others in the office? What if someone's Menorah is offensive to me?

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As an American society, we have become too PC and try too hard to make everything as "standardized" as possible by restricting freedoms.

AMEN.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[kbordson 8]

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as long as it's not offensive to others in the area

Where do you draw the line at what is and what isn't offensive?
What if my Christmas decorations are offensive to others in the office? What if someone's Menorah is offensive to me?

Jim

The question should be why would the menorah be offensive? It's a representation of that persons belief system. Not an attack on your belief system.
Where do you draw the line? Who decides? Tough questions, but my theory is if it doesn't hurt (and I mean really hurt - not make you question and think) anyone and doesn't become a disruptive item, let it be. But with the "disruptive" statement, we're back to the tolerance thing again.... Some people just aren't tolerant of any thoughts other and the ones that they may have grown up with. There are no other options. It's because of this level of closed mindedness that the laws were made to keep the "peace."
Sacrifice of freedom for society. I don't believe in that.

[popsjumper 2]

"They" can call the tree whatever they want to.
"You" can call it whatever you want to.


another one of those "if you don't see it my way, then you're an asshole and I'm offended" situations.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[GTAVercetti 0]

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As an American society, we have become too PC and try too hard to make everything as "standardized" as possible by restricting freedoms.

The freedom of which you speak, is, I am guessing, the 1st amendment. And it only applies to infringement by the government. If an office decides to ban Christmas items, it may be a poor managerial decision for moral, but it is their right. The freedoms detailed in the Bill of Rights to do not apply to private business. If it did, you could tell your boss to "Shut the fuck up" and not get fired.

There is NO RESTRICTION on freedom if a tree on GOVERNMENT property is renamed. Everyone is still allowed to celebrate as they see fit in their private lives. Have no fear, your freedom is still quite in tact.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kbordson 8]

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As an American society, we have become too PC and try too hard to make everything as "standardized" as possible by restricting freedoms.

The freedom of which you speak, is, I am guessing, the 1st amendment. And it only applies to infringement by the government. If an office decides to ban Christmas items, it may be a poor managerial decision for moral (sic), but it is their right. The freedoms detailed in the Bill of Rights to do not apply to private business. If it did, you could tell your boss to "Shut the fuck up" and not get fired.

There is NO RESTRICTION on freedom if a tree on GOVERNMENT property is renamed. Everyone is still allowed to celebrate as they see fit in their private lives. Have no fear, your freedom is still quite in tact (sic).

Nope, you're guessing wrong, I don't think you understood me. I wasn't just aluding to just the 1st Amendment rights (but, for the record, you do have the right to tell your boss to STFU... you just have to accept that he then has to right to fire you) I was trying to take it to a bigger picture discussion of tolerance and beliefs.

But thank you for your sanctimonious reassurance of my freedoms.

[TrophyHusband 0]

while it is true that christianity has adopted almost every holiday from pagan rituals, we in this country have been putting up trees to celebrate christmas. therefore it is a christmas tree. as an atheist i have adopted the christmas holiday and many of its rituals from christianinty. i still call it christmas. i will also have a christmas tree in my house. looking at the big picture, it really isn't important if its called a christmas tree or a holiday tree. i just think its a silly thing to make such a big deal about. if its that much of a controversy about its name, then don't put it up at all.

what i do think is a big deal, is blue laws. being a pretty serious liberal, i would think that you would be pissed about them too. blue laws are on the books for the purpose of enforcing christian religious doctrine. this is much more offensive than labeling a holiday, a vacation, or a tree as "christmas".

"Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama
www.kjandmegan.com

[GTAVercetti 0]

All you would have had to say was the the first sentence. worng interpretation happens all the time. But thanks for assuming my tone. Looks like incorrect interpretation runs both ways.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[kallend 2,175]

Everyone with an education (or a clock) can agree when winter solstice occurs. Humans all over the world have been celebrating solstices for thousands of years.

So if we just call it a Solstice Tree, everyone can agree and have a big f&%king party to celebrate.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[RhondaLea 4]

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Where do you draw the line at what is and what isn't offensive?

What if my Christmas decorations are offensive to others in the office? What if someone's Menorah is offensive to me?

I draw the line where it actually has some quantifiable effect on another person's life.

A holiday decoration in the office hurts no one. I'm happy to work around holiday decorations, as long as I'm not responsible for the decorating. Don't make me listen to your Christmas music, but I don't really want to listen to what you call music the rest of the year either. Decorations sit there and do nothing; music is intrusive, unless it is exactly to one's own taste.

People should be able to do what they want. Don't put a tree in my house, I won't bitch that you have one in your front yard. I don't care what you call it.

As for the blue laws, it sounds like the attorney general is taking the back door route to getting them repealed. Often times with such issues, this is exactly the point of the exercise.

What I'm saying is that I don't think the two cases really have anything to do with one another. In the former it is a matter of disposing of an outdated law as expediently as possible; in the latter, adherence to the current state of the law is clearly demonstrated.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[ViperPilot 0]

Well if you're so against calling a Christmas Tree what it is, then call it a Sun God Tree or whatever the hell you want to, just don't make an entire city do it to make you happy.

I'm willing to bet 95% of people who celebrate Christmas see it as a holiday season to see familiy and friends, relax, go on vacation, give presents, etc. I'd bet only 5% see it as a massive religious holiday with overlording religious tones and who feel all they should do is pray or whatever. I'm a religious person, and yeah I realize that it's Jesus' birthday (or so they say), but nonetheless, I don't view Christmas as some massive religious holiday, I see it as what I listed above. I bet most people see it that way. It's complete BS to say Christmas is all religious...it only is if you're a jackass and make it religious.

No one cares what some sun worshipper said thousands of years ago...that day is over, this one is now. I don't give a shit what some minority crowd of sun worshippers think. They can call it a Holiday Tree or whatever, but the public should sure as hell not bend to political correctness and call it something else just for a bunch of whining idiots.

[kallend 2,175]

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Well if you're so against calling a Christmas Tree what it is, then ...

Please enlighten us as to why it IS a Christmas tree. How does a decorated tree relate to the Christmas story?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ViperPilot 0]

It's a Christmas Tree to me because that's what it's been for hundreds of years. Now maybe it was called something else a few thousand years ago, but I only care about what it has recently been called (i.e. since who the hell knows, but probably at least since the 1600s or so). Now if there's some huge majority movement to change the name and it takes root over time through culture, then fine, it'll be called that. But until some huge cultural movement to change the name happens, it should remain what it is called now. Point being, the name should not change just because a few d bags get asshurt over a damn name of a tree. And as it stands now, the Christmas Tree and christmas is an American tradition, so at least in America, the name should remain until American culture demands a change.

[kallend 2,175]

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It's a Christmas Tree to me because that's what it's been for hundreds of years. .

Just as I thought, it's all about you.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 7]

They can call it a Holiday Tree or whatever


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Happy Festivus!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~