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mnealtx

Too bad the judge relented...

By mnealtx, in Speakers Corner

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kelpdiver    2

kelpdiver
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This is where we disagree, I suppose. I see no difference in killing a rat in a spring trap (it generally breaks its back then holds it there till it starves or suffocates) and killing a kitten. Or, for that matter, shooting a raccoon or a skunk. All are mammals. All feel pain in the same way, all live in social groups, all nurse their young.



So the issue of domestication means nothing to you.

Wild rats are a disease vector. They also bite and leave smelly droppings/urine all over the place. It's not the same as buying a ratlet at the pet store and raising it in a cage.

And yes, we value cats and dogs more highly. Dumping them in the woods when there are better solutions is a problem, not only of cruelty, but also then of the problems with growing feral cat populations.

And we've seen that people who don't share society's values on these sort of pets often don't share our values on not killing each other.

I wouldn't dump her in the woods. Other than making for a good news story, what would that actually accomplish? I'd rather see her forced to contribute labor to an animal shelter.

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rehmwa    2

rehmwa
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What should this fellows punishment be?



First, an IQ test. 2nd, he shouldn't be allowed pets for the rest of his life. He obviously humanized his pet's intelligence rather than working a normal system of training normal for a puppy. He doesn't know what he's doing and ended up being cruel by thinking the dog could figure out (well, now YOU'RE in a hole. That should teach you to stop digging).

Lastly, he should have to stand in front of a crowd of city pet owners where they can vent their unnatural outrage at this guy for about 5 hours. That would kill anyone's spirit.

Edit: Sorry, I forgot. If you take a dead kitten and spin it hard on a 6 foot string, you can whip it at other dead kittens on a fence - thus knocking them down. This can amuse a small child for hours. (and is much less stressful than using live kittens).

Also, a dead cat with a straight out tail will eventually be stiff enough to use as remote control if you sit close enough to the televion. (2 fer here)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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billvon    3,132

billvon
>So the issue of domestication means nothing to you.

Domestication makes an animal more valuable monetarily. It does nothing to change the morals of killing an animal.

>Wild rats are a disease vector. They also bite and leave smelly
>droppings/urine all over the place.

So do feral cats. Neither baby rats nor baby cats are any more or less disease prone, or housebroken, or flea-infested.

>And yes, we value cats and dogs more highly. Dumping them in the
> woods when there are better solutions is a problem, not only of
> cruelty, but also then of the problems with growing feral cat
> populations.

I agree. And if you killed someone's cat, the fine should be greater than the fine for killing a rat, because cats are more expensive to replace. But to get back to the original topic of the thread - killing either one is similar morally. Both should not be killed needlessly, and if they _do_ need to be killed, it should be done humanely. Claiming that rats are vermin and cats aren't is a way to dodge the issue.

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artistcalledian    0

artistcalledian
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>I'm with you--the judge should have left that piece of shit out there.

Call me crazy, but I'd rather kill a dozen kittens than have a human mother (raising children) given pneumonia. Kittens are animals. We're human beings. Which means we have a duty to treat animals humanely - but we are still the humans and they are still the animals.

People kill dozens of rats with poison or traps that break their backs, think nothing of killing baby cows in some pretty horrible ways, or skinning minks by the hundreds. But change the animal to a cat and people go all PETA.



You are not crazy--I understand where you are coming from. This is *purely* a gut-level reaction on my part and I don't think I am capable of discussing it in an intelligent way because my feelings about animal cruelty are just too strong. And I know that you love animals and are kind to them even when you really don't have to be.

We're not different in our compassion for animals, but I think we are a little different in the value we place on different human lives. To dredge up on old example, "Charlie Manson or a kitten". I like to think that most people would spare the life of a kitten before they would space the life of Charles Manson.

Does animal suffering compare to human suffering?

I have seen my fair share of human suffering. I got really used to it when I was a nurse. I don't think people generally deserve to suffer, but I see it as part of life.

I don't see people treating animals in a cruel way as part of life, though, and I would feel fine if that lady had suffered greatly and developed life-threatening illness while serving the punishment that unfortunately got short. Why? Because anyone who would do what she did is a piece of subhuman garbage that needs to be scared as hell of doing something like that again.

I think the lady is not likely to turn into some sort of fine human being no matter what anyone does but putting some serious fear into her about being cruel to animals would probably be quite easy and effective. Given the opportunity, I would gladly do it myself and she would consider freezing her ass off in a park without food or shelter to be a real vacation by comparison.

As for her being a mother, why in the HELL should that be a mitigating factor? She just may be sick enough that she is raising the next Charles Manson. If anything, I'd be ok with her kids being taken away and being placed with people who have some sort of compassion for animals--particularly animals who are dependent on human care.

Walt



i agree totally with what you said

people who are cruel to animals (and this includes people who hunt for "fun") should have their knackers cut off (even the woman:o) i'd rather see some crual bastard die than a defenceless animal die, people all too often dismiss animal cruelty as not really that important, how wrong they are

don't even get me started on people who go shooting for the fun of it B| they should have their precious guns turned on themselves
________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

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billvon    3,132

billvon
>feral cats don't invade the household.

That's how we got our first cat. And the neighbors once had to chase a whole litter out from behind their water heater.

But all that's beside the point. It doesn't matter where they live. What does matter is that they have an equal right to humane treatment, even if they're not cute, cuddly and make cool "Hang in there!" posters.

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waltappel    1

waltappel
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people who are cruel to animals (and this includes people who hunt for "fun") should have their knackers cut off (even the woman:o) i'd rather see some crual bastard die than a defenceless animal die, people all too often dismiss animal cruelty as not really that important, how wrong they are

don't even get me started on people who go shooting for the fun of it B| they should have their precious guns turned on themselves



I can't fault people who hunt responsibly. It's often necessary to keep a species from over-populating and starving to death after depleting their natural food sources.

I don't hunt. It's just not my thing, but believe me, there are a great many responsible hunters out there and they don't deserve to be looked at as a bunch of bloodthirsty, cruel lunatics.

Some hunters really are bad news, but I think the majority are not and in no way deserve to have their guns turned on themselves.

Walt

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rehmwa    2

rehmwa
If you kick a dead cat, he doesn't give you that "look" like a live cat does. That helps.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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