Bush: Being against the war in Iraq is OK

[kallend 2,148]

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Sorry you feel that way but I am confident you are not correct in that post......

So you didn't read or listen to the 2003 SOTU then? Surely you don't want me to list AGAIN the statements in there that turned out to be provably untrue.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,116]

>Did FDR make this speech while we were at war?

It wasn't FDR; it was Teddy Roosevelt. He made those comments towards the end of World War I.

Another quote, this time from one of Roosevelt's contemporaries, Senator Robert LaFollette (R-Wisc) made around the same time. Longer but worth reading.

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More than all, the citizen and his representative in Congress in time of war must maintain his right of free speech. More than in time of peace it is necessary that the channels for free public discussion of governmental policies shall be open and unclogged.

I believe, Mr. President, that I am now touching upon the most important question in this country to-day--and that is the right of the citizens of this country and their representatives in Congress to discuss in an orderly way frankly and publicly and without fear, from the platform and through the press, every important phase of this war; its causes, the manner in which it should be conducted, and the terms upon which peace should be made. The belief which is becoming wide spread in this land that this most fundamental right is being denied to the citizens of this country is a fact the tremendous significance of which, those in authority have not yet begun to appreciate.

I am contending, Mr. President, for the great fundamental right of the sovereign people of this country to make their voice heard and have that voice heeded upon the great questions arising out of this war, including not only how the war shall be prosecuted but the conditions upon which it may be terminated with a due regard for the rights and the honor of this Nation and the interests of humanity.
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[rushmc 23]

There are 16 seperate intel groups that review and debate intell that is presented. ALL 16 were in agreement about Iraq. This is rare at best.

The info is in a new book called Misinformation.

Bad intell at worst, but saying it was a lie......well......it is not the present administration.
that is or has done any lying about Iraq!

But I have come to understand that you don't care about the facts. You use retoric, quotes out of context and nonsubstanciated inuendo and charges to try sway others to your way of thinking (my opinion)

Sad really

But let the debate continue. Time will tell if I am really the wrong one here.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rehmwa 2]

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Sometimes to get the attention of those that place themselves above the rest of the populace.....you need to make more noise to get their attention. Look at the Mom that placed herself outside Bush's ranch. It wasn't perfect, it wasnt the most civil, it wasn't unpatriotic.....but it made waves.

I think GM's approach isn't about if it's protected or not, everybody seems in agreement that even idiotic, contentious and rude speech is still protected (Edit: it MUST be, for the sake of all the rest of us). But the question of whether it's worthwhile, patriotic or counterproductive is the discussion on hand. That's completely unrelated.

Every hear the story about the Boy That Cried 'Wolf'?
If someone gets in your face about the pissy little crap, don't you eventually tune them out.

If people abuse their right to free speech, then they still retain their right to speak, just no one listens to them anymore. That might be even more important than them just being selfish, inconsiderate, or tactless.........

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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Every hear the story about the Boy That Cried 'Wolf'?
If someone gets in your face about the pissy little crap, don't you eventually tune them out.

If people abuse their right to free speech, then they still retain their right to speak, just no one listens to them anymore. That might be even more important than them just being selfish, inconsiderate, or tactless.........

There is always responsibility when it comes to any freedom. Yelling BOMB in an airport will help you get you arrested in a moment.....and some possible long term negative side effects.

Now. Why does anyone feel that a dissenting view to war is unpatriotic?

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[rehmwa 2]

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Now. Why does anyone feel that a dissenting view to war is unpatriotic?

It certainly comes down to the intent of the dissenter. If they are insincere in their dissent and do it just to foil the government, then of course it's unpatriotic and even treasonable.

But that's damn near impossible to prove, isn't it? Plus I'm not a big fan on policing thought (that's more for extreme lefties and righties to work on). Further, even the worst case scenario would be partisan, not treasonous (take down a party, neglecting the consequences - but not to destroy a government as such)

So it would depend on the results, not the intent to judge.

I don't think most of the personal dissent is insincere (I do think most of the "public" stuff is partisan and completely insincere - I don't think that about the man on the street though). And I don't think it affects our efforts that much other than just a repetitive annoyance (results are negligible in terms of the efforts - "OH NO bluto, we are 'encouraging' the enemy" nuts, they encourage themselves). So it doesn't really hurt, and it could help when presented well and tactfully.

But again, if it's not focused, tactful, and sincere, it will be ignored. That's the problem with many in dissent, they don't realize how to use their freedon of speech effectively, it's just a big excuse to vent without purpose (and then congratulate themselves on being trendy and feeling superior). Speech needs to be powerful, not loud. We have a lot of loudmouths instead.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[livendive 8]

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I don't recall anyone saying that being against the war is unpatriotic. I do remember people saying the outrageous, disrespectful, personal attacks on the President at a time of war, when our troops are at risk, endangering them is unpatriotic.

How do outrageous, disrespectful, personal attacks on the President endanger the troops?


Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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I'm sure your boss apppreciates a dissenting opinion and I'm pretty sure you are welcomed to dissagree with him. I'm equally sure that if you start calling him stupid and dumb, that he will be a lot less likely to listen to you and if you keep it up and/or escalate the attacks to the point of disrespect, he will fire you.

The point being that a dissenting opinion is good. Personal attacks cross the line.

If I think my boss is stupid, I can easily find another job that I will probably enjoy more. Finding a new and improved country to call home isn't nearly so simple. In the meantime, I'll have to settle for considering our President a fool, undeserving of my respect for anything other than his title.

Bleus,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Gravitymaster 0]

I can't imagine where they got this idea from, can you?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/11/alqaeda.letter/

Bash away. Just understand your words are being heard by more than just the President. Sad that people don't understand their words have impact. I suppose it's because they feel the need to be shrill to be heard.

The plan, at this point is to have elections next month, continue to get Iraqi security forces trained and slowly draw down our troops. Why do people have such a problem with that?

[billvon 3,116]

>Sad that people don't understand their words have impact.

Fair enough. We'll change the First Amendment to state that anyone can say anything they want as long as we run it by Al Qaeda first. Would that address your concerns?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Sad that people don't understand their words have impact.

Fair enough. We'll change the First Amendment to state that anyone can say anything they want as long as we run it by Al Qaeda first. Would that address your concerns?

Yeah, Bill, thats exactly what I meant. Well reasoned reply.

[billvon 3,116]

>Yeah, Bill, thats exactly what I meant.

Ah, my mistake. I thought you posted a link to an Al Qaeda letter, and suggested we should not say certain things because of how Al Qaeda reacted to what we say. So can I take it your post was just more of a general bash?

[rushmc 23]

I see by the word "gotcha" game in some other threads and the responces to you in this thread they, the lefties, don't understand words have consequences

They don't understand that you are not talking about factual debate as oppposed to reckless accusations.

Hang in there

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I see by the word "gotcha" game in some other threads and the responces to you in this thread they, the lefties, don't understand words have consequences

They don't understand that you are not talking about factual debate as oppposed to reckless accusations.

Hang in there

I love the lefties. They provide me with unmeasurable amusement. Even more than my cat.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I can't imagine where they got this idea from, can you?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/10/11/alqaeda.letter/

Propoganda can be spun from ANYTHING!!! These are people that others in the region consider extreme. If 100% of this country was behind Bush's crazy cowboy notions....then the letter from AQ could be "The Great Satan and their allies wish to remove us....blah blah blah." It's terrorism....the point is not to win with force but thru emotion and illogical thoughts; to make you question everything you normally do; to interupt your life. It is a lose/lose scenario if you try to start avoiding their traps. The best bet against an enemy like this is to keep living your life as is...to keep America 'as is.' Don't get caught up in their spin.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....