ChasingBlueSky 0 #1 November 21, 2005 I'm not a fan of the death penalty. Worthless revenge is not in me, nor do I feel I have the right to judge someone's life as forfeit. Our legal system is not perfect because of the human aspect of it. Therefore something as absolute as state legislated murder doesn't make sense to me. Nothing in this case has been proven - but the fact that there is doubt shows major flaws. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/texas.execution.ap/index.html HOUSTON, Texas (AP) -- Doubts are being cast on the guilt of a Texas man executed more than a dozen years ago after the crime's lone witness recanted and a co-defendant said he allowed his friend to be falsely accused under police pressure, the Houston Chronicle reported Sunday. Ruben Cantu was 17 in 1984 when he was charged with capital murder in the fatal shooting of a man during an attempted robbery in San Antonio. The victim was shot nine times with a rifle before the gunman unloaded more rounds into the only eyewitness. The eyewitness, Juan Moreno, told the Chronicle that it wasn't Cantu who shot him. Moreno said he identified Cantu as the killer during his 1985 trial because he felt pressured and was afraid of authorities. (Watch the reporter investigating the case -- 3:16) Meanwhile, Cantu's co-defendant, David Garza, recently signed a sworn affidavit saying he allowed his friend to be accused, even though Cantu wasn't with him the night of the killing. Cantu was executed at age 26. He had long professed his innocence. "Part of me died when he died," said Garza, who was 15 at the time of the murder. "You've got a 17-year-old who went to his grave for something he did not do. Texas murdered an innocent person." Miriam Ward, forewoman of the jury that convicted Cantu, said the panel's decision was the best they could do based on the information presented during the trial. "With a little extra work, a little extra effort, maybe we'd have gotten the right information," Ward said. "The bottom line is, an innocent person was put to death for it. We all have our finger in that." Sam D. Millsap Jr., then the Bexar County district attorney who decided to charge Cantu with capital murder, told the newspaper he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three separate times. On the night of the attack, 19-year-old Moreno and his friend, 25-year-old Pedro Gomez, were sleeping in a house they were helping build for Moreno's brother. Burglars had recently struck, so they were guarding the home, located across the street from the trailer where Cantu lived. Both were awoken by a pair of teenagers demanding money. The older of the two carried a .22-caliber rifle. Gomez was killed; Moreno was shot but survived. Afterward, Moreno described his attackers as two Mexican-Americans he thought lived nearby. After a South San Antonio High School teacher mentioned that students were saying Cantu had done the killing, police showed Moreno photos of five Hispanic men, including Cantu. Moreno, however, did not identify Cantu as his attacker and the case appeared closed. About four months later, Cantu was involved in a bar shooting that injured an off-duty police officer. Cantu said the shooting erupted over a pool game and that he fired only when the officer flashed a gun and threatened him. The officer later said Cantu shot him four times in an unprovoked attack. That case against Cantu was dropped. "There was an overreaction, and some of the evidence may have been tainted. It could not be prosecuted," said former homicide Sgt. Bill Ewell, who oversaw the investigation. Ewell, a friend of the officer, said the bar shooting prompted him to reopen the Gomez murder case. He sent a bilingual homicide detective to show Cantu's photo to Moreno for the second time. Moreno still did not identify Cantu. The next day, Ewell sent out a different bilingual detective who brought Moreno, who was then an illegal immigrant, back to the police station. Moreno was again shown Cantu's photo along with four others. The officer's report indicates that Moreno picked out Cantu, then signed and dated the back of the photo. But the photo submitted into evidence at trial was not dated on the back, according to trial transcripts. Moreno said he felt compelled to do what police wanted, even though he knew it was wrong. "The police were sure it was (Cantu) because he had hurt a police officer," Moreno said in a recent interview. "They told me they were certain it was him, and that's why I testified." Ewell, now retired, told the Chronicle, "I'm confident the right people were prosecuted."_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #2 November 21, 2005 Whoops! On to the next.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #3 November 21, 2005 That easy for you to toss aside someone's life that was wasted?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #4 November 21, 2005 Quote That easy for you to toss aside someone's life that was wasted? A guy who also shot a cop in a bar? Yeah, I'm weeping for this young, untapped life, who was the very essence of a real man, who would show up, be of service to himself and his fellows. Nope, can't get choked up with this one. Either way, this isn't Texas' fault in my opinion. It's the two witnesses that lied under oath against him. Texas has an express lane for the death penalty, why anyone would f*ck with that is beyond me.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #5 November 21, 2005 Ah, nobody's gonna miss one Mexican, they all have a dozen kids each, anyway. Texas Justice... YEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW! EDIT: Puh-raise Jayzus! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gemini 0 #6 November 21, 2005 QuoteSam D. Millsap Jr., then the Bexar County district attorney who decided to charge Cantu with capital murder, told the newspaper he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three separate times. Let's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #7 November 21, 2005 I had a whole section on that I typed up.....then removed it......Wanted to see what people focused on....may repost it later_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Channman 2 #8 November 21, 2005 I think the important thing to remember here in your post is the words "may have". Until then, next on the list, we still have time left in the year to set a record. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #9 November 21, 2005 QuoteI think the important thing to remember here in your post is the words "may have". Sure. Nothing to worry about. Let's hope you don't find yourself in that position.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #10 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteSam D. Millsap Jr., then the Bexar County district attorney who decided to charge Cantu with capital murder, told the newspaper he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three separate times. Let's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. ____________________________________ I've heard about 'jailhouse confessions' and the like. Usually, someone is lookin' for a lighter sentence! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tenshi 0 #11 November 22, 2005 Lol @ "may have executed" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #12 November 22, 2005 QuoteLol @ "may have executed" ____________________________________ I see what you are saying. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Nightingale 0 #13 November 22, 2005 Since 1973, 122 people have been released from death row based on evidence of their INNOCENCE, or a re-trial and an acquittal. Here's the list: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109 This list does not include innocent people who were actually executed. It's difficult to maintain a list of executed innocents, because there isn't as much motive to investigate their cases. For anyone interested in information about innocent people who were actually executed, I refer you to "Death of Innocents: An Eyewitness Account of Wrongful Executions" by Sr. Helen Prejean (the Catholic nun who was portrayed by Susan Sarandon in Dead Man Walking). You can find it on amazon.com here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679440569/103-7238703-2091045?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #14 November 22, 2005 I have also read many accounts of courts who have procedures to destroy and/or permanently seal records/evidence once the execution has taken place, which makes it impossible to ever prove whether an innocent was executed."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unformed 0 #15 November 22, 2005 This isn't a problem with the justice system or the death penalty. It's a problem with police and attorneys' treatment of suspects and potential witnesses. There was an article in Razor magazine a couple years ago about the same thing. There should be a law where police who "highly encourage" people to wrongfully testify against others should at the minimum not be allowed to serve anymore. Given that just strong encouragement causes false witness, who's to say that those being tortured won't say anything they can think of just so they won't be in pain anymore? but that's just a whole different level of the issue ...This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,563 #16 November 22, 2005 QuoteA guy who also shot a cop in a bar? Yeah, I'm weeping for this young, untapped life, who was the very essence of a real man, who would show up, be of service to himself and his fellows. An off duty cop who threatened him with a gun while playing pool? What a credit to the force. QuoteIt's the two witnesses that lied under oath against him. Texas has an express lane for the death penalty, why anyone would f*ck with that is beyond me. The two witnesses that lied under oath under pressure from the investigators to do so? The guy who was executed did not fuck with the system, the system fucked with him. He may not have been an angel but it seems like he didn't commit that murder. How can you not care when innocent people are executed?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,544 #17 November 22, 2005 Odds are that Texas has executed a number of innocent men. Most of them were probably guilty of other crimes. Contrary to popular opinion, being judged guilty by a jury does not mean one actually committed the crime. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #18 November 22, 2005 QuoteLet's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Bingo! We have a winner! My sentiments EXACTLY! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Loonix 0 #19 November 22, 2005 Lets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #20 November 22, 2005 QuoteLets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) How would you suggest Texas go about proving it given that (A) a fair trial of a dead person is not possible, and (B) Texas has a vested interest in not proving it. This is exactly the kind of circumstance that the Illinois commission on the death penalty identified as being so likely to lead to a miscarriage of justice that the death penalty should NOT be an option in such cases.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #21 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteLet's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Bingo! We have a winner! My sentiments EXACTLY! Well, that's OK then, as long as you are cool with the possibility that you kill an innocent person.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 November 22, 2005 QuoteLets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) Why does someone NEED to die? Does revenge help at all?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #23 November 22, 2005 QuoteWhy does someone NEED to die? Does revenge help at all? makes for better hollywood movies ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #24 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteLet's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Bingo! We have a winner! My sentiments EXACTLY! Well, that's OK then, as long as you are cool with the possibility that you kill an innocent person. NOTHING is certain in a jury trial, so a possibility remains in many verdicts. . However, I'm comfortable with our system of justice. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steveorino 7 #25 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteLets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) Why does someone NEED to die? Does revenge help at all? You're confusing revenge with justice. The families that cried out for Timothy McVeigh's death were not seeking revenge, but justice. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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gemini 0 #6 November 21, 2005 QuoteSam D. Millsap Jr., then the Bexar County district attorney who decided to charge Cantu with capital murder, told the newspaper he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three separate times. Let's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #7 November 21, 2005 I had a whole section on that I typed up.....then removed it......Wanted to see what people focused on....may repost it later_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Channman 2 #8 November 21, 2005 I think the important thing to remember here in your post is the words "may have". Until then, next on the list, we still have time left in the year to set a record. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #9 November 21, 2005 QuoteI think the important thing to remember here in your post is the words "may have". Sure. Nothing to worry about. Let's hope you don't find yourself in that position.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #10 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteSam D. Millsap Jr., then the Bexar County district attorney who decided to charge Cantu with capital murder, told the newspaper he never should have sought the death penalty in a case based on testimony from an eyewitness who identified a suspect only after police showed him Cantu's photo three separate times. Let's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. ____________________________________ I've heard about 'jailhouse confessions' and the like. Usually, someone is lookin' for a lighter sentence! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tenshi 0 #11 November 22, 2005 Lol @ "may have executed" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #12 November 22, 2005 QuoteLol @ "may have executed" ____________________________________ I see what you are saying. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #13 November 22, 2005 Since 1973, 122 people have been released from death row based on evidence of their INNOCENCE, or a re-trial and an acquittal. Here's the list: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=6&did=109 This list does not include innocent people who were actually executed. It's difficult to maintain a list of executed innocents, because there isn't as much motive to investigate their cases. For anyone interested in information about innocent people who were actually executed, I refer you to "Death of Innocents: An Eyewitness Account of Wrongful Executions" by Sr. Helen Prejean (the Catholic nun who was portrayed by Susan Sarandon in Dead Man Walking). You can find it on amazon.com here: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679440569/103-7238703-2091045?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #14 November 22, 2005 I have also read many accounts of courts who have procedures to destroy and/or permanently seal records/evidence once the execution has taken place, which makes it impossible to ever prove whether an innocent was executed."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unformed 0 #15 November 22, 2005 This isn't a problem with the justice system or the death penalty. It's a problem with police and attorneys' treatment of suspects and potential witnesses. There was an article in Razor magazine a couple years ago about the same thing. There should be a law where police who "highly encourage" people to wrongfully testify against others should at the minimum not be allowed to serve anymore. Given that just strong encouragement causes false witness, who's to say that those being tortured won't say anything they can think of just so they won't be in pain anymore? but that's just a whole different level of the issue ...This ad space for sale. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,563 #16 November 22, 2005 QuoteA guy who also shot a cop in a bar? Yeah, I'm weeping for this young, untapped life, who was the very essence of a real man, who would show up, be of service to himself and his fellows. An off duty cop who threatened him with a gun while playing pool? What a credit to the force. QuoteIt's the two witnesses that lied under oath against him. Texas has an express lane for the death penalty, why anyone would f*ck with that is beyond me. The two witnesses that lied under oath under pressure from the investigators to do so? The guy who was executed did not fuck with the system, the system fucked with him. He may not have been an angel but it seems like he didn't commit that murder. How can you not care when innocent people are executed?Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,544 #17 November 22, 2005 Odds are that Texas has executed a number of innocent men. Most of them were probably guilty of other crimes. Contrary to popular opinion, being judged guilty by a jury does not mean one actually committed the crime. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #18 November 22, 2005 QuoteLet's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Bingo! We have a winner! My sentiments EXACTLY! steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Loonix 0 #19 November 22, 2005 Lets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #20 November 22, 2005 QuoteLets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) How would you suggest Texas go about proving it given that (A) a fair trial of a dead person is not possible, and (B) Texas has a vested interest in not proving it. This is exactly the kind of circumstance that the Illinois commission on the death penalty identified as being so likely to lead to a miscarriage of justice that the death penalty should NOT be an option in such cases.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #21 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteLet's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Bingo! We have a winner! My sentiments EXACTLY! Well, that's OK then, as long as you are cool with the possibility that you kill an innocent person.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #22 November 22, 2005 QuoteLets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) Why does someone NEED to die? Does revenge help at all?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #23 November 22, 2005 QuoteWhy does someone NEED to die? Does revenge help at all? makes for better hollywood movies ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #24 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteLet's see if I have this straight. Guy lies on the witness stand, years later he gets into a shootout with a cop, case is not prosecuted, he becomes something of a celebrity in the latino community but testified previously against a latino who was executed. Sounds like he likes the celebirty thing. Why would anyone believe him now? Nothing has changed except his friend is dead and he is still lying to make the most out of the situation. Bingo! We have a winner! My sentiments EXACTLY! Well, that's OK then, as long as you are cool with the possibility that you kill an innocent person. NOTHING is certain in a jury trial, so a possibility remains in many verdicts. . However, I'm comfortable with our system of justice. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steveorino 7 #25 November 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteLets say he is proven to be innocent. Then surely, someone must be put on death row for his murder, right? Who should it be? (I'm not asking ChasingBlueSky this, but everyone in favor of the death penalty) Why does someone NEED to die? Does revenge help at all? You're confusing revenge with justice. The families that cried out for Timothy McVeigh's death were not seeking revenge, but justice. steveOrino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
