ReBirth 0 #201 December 6, 2005 QuoteI can't remember the last time there was a shooting When was the last time an innocent person was executed? Here's a list of murder rates per capita. US is 24th. Check out all the countries with strict gun control laws above them. http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/cri_mur_cap&int=34 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twibbles 0 #202 December 7, 2005 I'm not trying to argue for the death sentence, just pointing out that gun control plus a strong, some say draconian law plus cultural views on guns and strict policing resulted in a practically zero gun crime rate in this case. Would be intersting to get the opinion of a British firearms officer about arming the British police, i've been livng in the UK for the last six years. Eugene "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #203 December 7, 2005 I believe a non-armed British officer did post his opinion earlier, and he was opposed to it. That's cool. If they don't want to carry guns that's their perogative. I wasn't commenting about the death penalty here either. My point was just that there's not a direct correlation between gun control laws and violence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
twibbles 0 #204 December 7, 2005 Fair enough, would love to have a good chat with you over a couple of beer sometime Eugene "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #205 December 7, 2005 Cool with me. I get a little opinionated when I'm drinking though, not like here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,115 #206 December 7, 2005 QuoteQuoteI can't remember the last time there was a shooting When was the last time an innocent person was executed? Here's a list of murder rates per capita. US is 24th. Check out all the countries with strict gun control laws above them. http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/cri_mur_cap&int=34 So you think Zimbabwe, Zambia, Krgyzstan and Papua New Guinea are appropriate metrics for evaluating the US's homicide rate? Why not compare with, say, Norway, England, Australia or Canada; countries we generally consider to have comparable cultures?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #207 December 7, 2005 I think our cultures are very different when it comes to violence and crime. But not because of gun laws. That's the point. 23 countries have higher rates of murder and most have very strict gun control laws. So tell me, why would anyone think gun control laws would help? Possibly the cause of the violence is something different than a lack of gun control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #208 December 7, 2005 um... I can't think of any of the countries above the US in that list where you could describe gun restrictions as strict and well enforced or where obtaining a gun would pose a problem for anyone. Hell if you expand the list to all countries it's not until you get to number 40 in that you actually find a First World Nation - that country being France who’s firearms laws are nothing like as strict as UK laws for example. I'm not saying there's any correlation between gun laws and murder rates - I'm just saying that the table you post could actually be seen to be arguing that there is a very strong correlation. As such I am really confused by your posts. I initially thought you were being sarcastic. Seriously, I really did. Why would someone who is arguing that gun laws make no difference to gun crime post a table showing the US has the 24th highest murder rate per capita in the world (out of how many hundred countries?) putting it in amongst third and second world nations who have very very poor firearms control? I simply don't get your argument. QuotePossibly the cause of the violence is something different than a lack of gun control. I agree entirely. But this table does not show that - quite the contrary in fact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #209 December 7, 2005 You may be mistaken. Mexico, for example has very very strict gun control laws. You go to prison for posessing a bullet. Quoteand well enforced Ahhhh....now you may be on to something. They aren't enforced well here. That's why it's useless to pass more strict laws when the existing laws aren't fully enforced yet. All that does is criminalize more behavior without actually having any effect on the problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #210 December 7, 2005 And how well is that enforced? Besides there are always exceptions to generalisations. The majority of the countries at the top of that table have very poor control on firearms ownership in their countries. Look at this longer version of your table. Look at the bottom entries - say from the UK down - those countries with the fewest murders per-capita. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-b/cri_mur_cap They all have one thing in common - very very stringent gun control which is strongly enforced (with of course a couple of exceptions as with any generalisation). Now that is not the reason why murder rates are lower in those countries... but the figures do run entirely contrary to your argument. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #211 December 7, 2005 QuoteAhhhh....now you may be on to something. They aren't enforced well here. That's why it's useless to pass more strict laws when the existing laws aren't fully enforced yet. I agree with your edit. Enforcement is a huge element of the battle but is always a difficult thing to guage from tables. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #212 December 7, 2005 Quote They all have one thing in common - very very stringent gun control which is strongly enforced Is that all they have in common? Seems most are predominantly white. Maybe it's racial? I don't believe that, but can be inferred using the same logic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #213 December 7, 2005 Sure, I didn't mean "one thing" to be exhaustive. As I said, I agree that gun control is not the only factor in the murder rate, I just disagree that these tables actually support that contention. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #214 December 7, 2005 Gonna interject.... I just finished reading the 2nd book by Lois Lowry to my little boy...."Gathering Blue." It followed "The Giver." The Giver was my favorite of the two, but they're both excellent for helping kids learn about rules in society and different kinds of communities--really about social policy. Well, The Giver was based on a community in which, for safety purposes and equality, almost all individuality had been eliminated. People weren't burdened with the responsibility of making choices. That would be too dangerous. They had gone to sameness. In this community people were relatively happy, though ignorant. Since they had lived this way for generations, they had no idea what they were missing.... It was a pleasant place with no crime, no choice, and really not much risk. Just thought I'd share. My little boy's 8. He really grasped the concepts pretty well and discusses his thoughts about these communities pretty easily. It's a great book to read to you 10-12 y/o's.... Now you can all get back to your previous discussion.-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #215 December 7, 2005 QuoteWell, The Giver was based on a community in which, for safety purposes and equality, almost all individuality had been eliminated. People weren't burdened with the responsibility of making choices. That would be too dangerous. They had gone to sameness. In this community people were relatively happy, though ignorant. Since they had lived this way for generations, they had no idea what they were missing.... It was a pleasant place with no crime, no choice, and really not much risk. Sounds awful, i'd rather cut off my own knackers than live in a place like that________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #216 December 7, 2005 Yeah....me too. My little boy doesn't want to live there either. That's the point. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #217 December 7, 2005 QuoteYeah....me too. My little boy doesn't want to live there either. That's the point. linz ahh right ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,569 #218 December 7, 2005 QuoteJust thought I'd share. My little boy's 8. He really grasped the concepts pretty well and discusses his thoughts about these communities pretty easily. It's a great book to read to you 10-12 y/o's.... Hey, wait a minute. Your kid understood it at 8, but you think we should read it to our kids when they are 10-12. Are you saying your kids are more intelligent than ours!! If I was a parent I'd lay some smackdown on yaDo you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #219 December 7, 2005 No no no....as I was reading it to him, I thought he'd understand some of the subtleties better in a couple or 3 years.... :) No smackdown please.... though my kid IS brighter than most -- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #220 December 9, 2005 Postscript, News: TEXAN policeman Ben Johnson has been pounding the beat in Reading (England) for several years... This week, the man who became the first foreigner to join the British police had a very public row with his bosses. PC Johnson bluntly says he will quit his job unless he is given a gun. He branded our streets as more dangerous than his previous home beat in Dallas. PC Johnson also described our police as ill-trained and ill-equipped...Full Story Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #221 December 9, 2005 What a pussy He'd probably want to wear full body armour (like the girls back home) if he ever played Rugby too (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #222 December 9, 2005 QuotePostscript, News: TEXAN policeman Ben Johnson has been pounding the beat in Reading (England) for several years... This week, the man who became the first foreigner to join the British police had a very public row with his bosses. PC Johnson bluntly says he will quit his job unless he is given a gun. He branded our streets as more dangerous than his previous home beat in Dallas. PC Johnson also described our police as ill-trained and ill-equipped...Full Story why don't you quote the article in full? ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #223 December 9, 2005 Ha....... Let's help... QuoteLet the facts speak for themselves. Det Con Ian Coward - a true hero - was, thankfully, the last Reading police officer to be murdered. It happened in 1971. Since that day 44 heavily armed Dallas police officers have died in the line of duty. Well, well, welll Selective Reading Mr Rich? - pun intended!! . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
artistcalledian 0 #224 December 9, 2005 thank god he's gone back home, we don't need loose cannons like him policeing our streets he probably didn't feel safe without his trusty six shooter by his side our police must be made of finer stuff to be able to do the job without the need to be tooled up ________________________________________ drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #225 December 9, 2005 Quotewhy don't you quote the article in full? Because that would be a copyright violation. Do you have a problem clicking on the link I provided? Do you have any point you wish to make? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
