Should "Bobby" get a gun?

[artistcalledian 0]

Jimbo

there are approximately five times the amount of people in America compared to Britain, why is there way more than five times the amount of police getting killed each year compared to Britain?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[shropshire 0]

Ian,
You've been typing your fingers down to the stumps all day ... They just do not understand.... probably never will. 2 countries seperated by a common language.
Lot's of people in American appear to have been living so closely with guns all of their life, it's part of their 'culture'.. They can no more understand that most of us dont want anything to do with guns than we could live without warm beer..... or maybe they have shares in Smith & Weston

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[artistcalledian 0]

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You've been typing your fingers down to the stumps all day

not all day, i went down to Langar to get a jump in, but it was too windy for low number jumpers like me to go up but yeah, my fingers are bleeding right now LOL

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[miked10270 0]

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... the policewoman who died... COULD NOT HAVE DONE ANYTHING ABOUT IT EVEN IF THEY HAD BEEN CARRYING GUNS...

Have I missed something in the coverage of this? Where did it say that?

Authorised Firearms Officers, Diplomatic Protection Officers and AFO/DPO Instructors I've talked to are the first to admit that their perceptions & preparedness - their whole attitude changes simply by carrying a forearm. Would these two officers (despite their service) have been more prepared had they been armed? A "No" to this question implies complacency on their part - which I doubt.

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Most of the public in Britian don't want an armed police force, most of the police don't want an armed police force....

Since WHEN has the wishes of "Most" (public or police) been of consequence to a government decision - or even, coincidentally, what'd be sensible? THe recent 90 Day Terrorist Detention is an obvious example of this.

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In general, you need armed police, we don't need armed police

Do They? Dont We? This is the whole point of this discussion, which is not exclusively Anglo-American.

Personally I'm looking for something a little more than "That's not wanted here!" as a justification in and of itself. The original question wasn't "Does "Bobby" want a gun", We're discussing best practise, not desire.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[artistcalledian 0]

so, Mike...

you think it best practice to force guns upon people who don't want them, with all the potential problems that will cause?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[miked10270 0]

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you think it best practice to force guns upon people who don't want them, with all the potential problems that will cause?

The reason I asked the original question was to solicit views on whether it'd be best practice to issue firearms routinely and train the British Police.

Britain is the only police service which does not (currently) routinely arm & train its officers. The Garda & New Zealand police are also routinely unarmed, but are trained.

Simple comparison with America is somewhat restrictive. Are armed French, German, Dutch, Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, Australian, Spanish, Italian..... police more likely to be shot at? Does simply being armed make a police officer more likely to be shot at?... Or are there other aspects of a country's culture at work? What about when people of another, more violent culture meet the British Police? Do they then suspend their cultural beliefs?.. (Je thinks - Non!)

Whether individual police officers want to be armed or not is surely irrelevant. "Most" police officers didn't want side-handle or extending batons. "Most" police officers didn't want CS spray. "Most" police officers find the issue body armour heavy & restrictive. "Most" police officers want to take their tie off & open their shirt collar in hot weather. "Most" police officers will approach ANY aspect of their working practices with a significant dose of cynicism & resistance to change. Cynicism at "Street" level and resistance to change particularly at senior supervisory officer level.

"Most" police officers are told to "Like It or Lump It"... And "Most" police officers do just that.

Regards,

Mike.

PS: Just a stray thought... Are you so vehemently against having armed police just 'cos that means your girlfriend gets to play with guns and you dont?

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Scoop 0]

With my experience I have to say there is no way these officers were deployed to a robbery (armed or not) of any sorts on their own on purpose. This sounds like a tragic accident of either stumbling across a situation and not being prepared for it or what could well have been a simple panic alarm call. THe amount of intruder alarms/panic alarms received daily in one area is very high and 90% of the time they are false alarms. Cleaners activated alarms, member of staff pressed it in error etc.
I suspect there was no reason for the attention of armed officers at this point. However in true police fashion and enquiry will be held and an informed decision wil be made as to what went wrong and how it can be prevented again.
As much as I dont like it, maybe in this incident the routine arming of every police officer may have helped as they would have been better equipped.
However armed incidents are very low in the UK despite what the media says.

[miked10270 0]

Hi Scoop,

Yeah... THey were despatched to an "Alarm Activation" from an alarm company - there's nothing to say if it was even passed as an attack alarm as yet.

I'm surprised (and a lot disturbed) that two officers so young in service would be paired off on patrol in the first place! - There wasn't 3 years service between the two of them! No matter how "competent" their supervisors thought them to be, there's ultimately no substitute for "Time on the Street" to make you just that bit more wary, less confident, and you'll have already learned that "ASSUME" makes an ASS of U and ME.

BUT... Talking to Firearms Officers, the very issue of a gun even on "routine" duty like at an airport has the same effect.

Mike.

Edited to add: Want to bet against the enquiry saying something like: "This situation escalated in a way that could not have been forseen" and no blame being attributed to any supervisors or Force control?

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[artistcalledian 0]

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Whether individual police officers want to be armed or not is surely irrelevant. "Most" police officers didn't want side-handle or extending batons. "Most" police officers didn't want CS spray. "Most" police officers find the issue body armour heavy & restrictive. "Most" police officers want to take their tie off & open their shirt collar in hot weather.

and none of them comes even close to taking somebodies life, i can only speak for the view of one policewomen (my girlfriend) and that is she didn't join the policeforce to have to kill somebody with a gun, if it came to that...she'd not put herself in the position of having to do it in the first place, and that would mean leaving the force if they tried to force her to carry a gun. She can (and does) her job effectively without carrying a gun

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Scoop 0]

Yeah, as I thought.

Im a special constable and went on patrol on my second duty witha brand spanking new proabtioner officer. We had a good time and stayed away from what sounded like grief. I believe this kind of call is considered routine and its a quick way of getting a tick in the box to show youve checked a premises after alarm activation, all part of the PDP!
Im now independent and am actually a mentor and train new officers to reach independent status. Id have no problem taking a new officer to call like this, just sounds like tragic incident. Could happen at any job, routine vehicle stop check for example.

Shit happens, and when it does its tragic. RIP

[Scoop 0]

You might find this link interesting for police perspective...

http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32026

[mr2mk1g 10]

Hi mike. I'll answer the question you posted.

1) 80% of police don't feel they need guns. I realize that your question is not do they want one but should they have one but I feel it does have to come into things. I simply couldn't support forcing the police to carry guns when they don't feel they need them.

2) The status quo appears to be working pretty well. In the last 10 years we've had 1 bobby murdered by some twat of a Yank on a trip over here (now extended indefinitely at Her Majesty's pleasure) who pulled his .45 on a couple of traffic cops who'd pulled him over and now we've had another bobby murdered by a couple of twattish illegal immigrant Somalis.

Even if you extend the cause of deaths to those bobbies killed with other kinds of weapons you only have another 3 murders in those 10 years! So in total that's 1 police officer killed once every 2 years through an assault. Of course that's not perfect... but there are very few countries in the world, (especially with such large urban populations), who can point to such low fatality rates.

While God knows there are problems with the system, as there is with any - there's got to be something seriously right about our policing policy for such low rates to be maintained.

I've said many times before on this site that the biggest influence on British gun crime is illegal immigration and migration. It seems the statistics on who's killing our cops only serves to back up that assertion. I personally favor taking steps towards dealing with the damned immigrants who think it's acceptable to come here and fuck up my country.

[artistcalledian 0]

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we've had 1 bobby murdered by some twat of a Yank on a trip over here (now extended indefinitely at Her Majesty's pleasure) who pulled his .45 on a couple of traffic cops who'd pulled him over

he probably still thought it was his god given right to be carrying a gun if he wanted to

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[miked10270 0]

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You might find this link interesting for police perspective...

http://www.policespecials.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=32026

Interesting, and quite a spread of opinion. I have doubts about the Taser - "Less-Lethal" but also "Less-Effective".

I will say this. A "Street Cop" in the UK earns up to around £33,500 a year basic. A person who's deemed worthy of this salary isn't trusted with a firearm when they're simultaneously issued (& required to carry) a prohibited weapon (CS Spray) which is considered under the same legislation as a sub-machine gun?

If Brits TRUST the police, then why aren't they trusted to carry firearms outside an airport?

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[miked10270 0]

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he probably still thought it was his god given right to be carrying a gun if he wanted to

Americans have always been weak on stuff like World Geography. Some folk say that the REAL reason Russia wasn't nuked doring the Cold War was that none of the US pilots knew where it was!

So... This poor "Twat of a Yank" maybe simply heard folk talking funny (to him) English and just kind of assumed he was in Lousiana?

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[JohnRich 4]

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But apprently 80% of cops don't want guns.

There is more to that story: Here

Excerpts:

A survey (1995) of police attitudes to armed patrols found:

- 79% of police officers said they were not in favour of being routinely armed
- But 40% said more officers should be trained to use firearms
- 42% felt their life had been in serious danger as a result of personal threat in the previous two years
- 39% had been threatened with firearm, knife or other weapon in the previous two years
- In the event of a decision to arm all officers 43% said they would be prepared to carry firearms on duty or all of the time

“A significant majority did not want to be permanently armed,” says Federation chairman Fred Broughton. "But they did want proper risk assessments. They specifically wanted back up, and they wanted mobile armed-response vehicles. They also wanted better training and they wanted better management of armed situations.

That represents a lot of officers in serious danger, and if they don't want a gun themself, they sure as heck want someone else to have one to come help them, and quick.

[JohnRich 4]

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But apprently 80% of cops don't want guns.

Well, if we should do what 80% of the cops want, then what about this story:

"Eight out of 10 police think all officers on frontline duties should be issued with stun guns, a poll suggests."

Source

There's another 80% of street cops that wants stun guns. So are you anti-gun folks in favor of giving all street cops stun guns instead? Obviously, they must feel that they need something better than a billy-club to walk their patrols with.

[JohnRich 4]

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my girlfriend is in the Scotish CID... she says she would rather let a crimianl escape than to have to draw a gun on them

fuck guns, leave them to the fools who want them

That's nice - police who let criminals escape.

What do you suppose this philosophy does to the crime rate?

And while you call police who would use armed force to stop a criminal a "fool", I call them heros who are doing their job properly to protect the public.

Your girlfriend doesn't deserve to be a police officer. Would she let a criminal escape if she had to run a quarter-mile and get all sweaty to catch him? What about if she had to wrestle the suspect and get her hair messed up?

Are people who have saved their lives by using a gun in self defense, "fools"?

[Stumpy 284]

Point 1:

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79% of police officers said they were not in favour of being routinely armed

Yes - no debate here.

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40% said more officers should be trained to use firearms

Yes - and no-one is necessarily arguing that. What we are saying is the average bobby on the beat doesn't need them.

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In the event of a decision to arm all officers 43% said they would be prepared to carry firearms on duty or all of the time

Yes -all this is saying is that if the job description included it then they would carry them, however they don't feel they need them - see point 1.

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They specifically wanted back up, and they wanted mobile armed-response vehicles.

They now have these. Still no argument against point 1.

I agree with this - i think there is now sadly the need for specialist armed response coppers, they exist and generally do a very good job. However in our culture the normal police do not need them or want them and are significantly safer here in this country than they are anywhere else mentioned in this thread, gun control or no.

Never try to eat more than you can lift

[artistcalledian 0]

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Your girlfriend doesn't deserve to be a police officer. Would she let a criminal escape if she had to run a quarter-mile and get all sweaty to catch him? What about if she had to wrestle the suspect and get her hair messed up?

are you for real? try reading my other posts on why she would not be prepair do kill somebody

i've read many of your gun toting posts on here, you're the really nice person who takes their gun to a DZ aren't you

can i ask you, are you in the police yourself?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[ViperPilot 0]

In case you didn't catch it John, I was being incredibly sarcastic. Cops running around w/o the proper means to defend themselves and stop criminals is just lunacy.

P.S. I own several guns and couldn't live w/o them!

[mr2mk1g 10]

John, remember that survey was conducted over 10 years ago. Since that survey was conducted many of its 'recommendations' have been acted upon.

We have now (as the survey requests) trained far more police in the use of firearms. We also have armed response units in every city as requested by the survey. These are areas which could be improved upon even further if the police still feel that 10 years on there is a need for more it.

The fact that between 1993 and 1995 42% of police officers felt their life is in serious danger simply mirrors the much higher rate of fatal assaults against police officers than we have experienced during the last 10 years.

I also note you highlight the fact that 43% would carry if required to. The converse of that of course is that 57%, more than half the country's police force, would not be prepared to carry even if required to do so. If that's the case what would we see happen were police required to carry? Would we see a national strike of police officers? Would more than half the force walk out of their positions over night?

That more than half the police in the country would not be prepared to wear a firearm even if required to do so is an immensely strong statement about their wishes.

Regarding stun guns: you're 2 and a half years late on that one: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2955019.stm I wouldn't have a problem extending their use across the force if the police feel it would be useful, but then I certainly don't fall into the anti-gun crowd. You'll have to wait on them for their answer.

[Scoop 0]

Furthur update...

Another one in custody, hopefully its one of the custody areas that doesnt have CCTV.

[artistcalledian 0]

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That more than half the police in the country would not be prepared to wear a firearm even if required to do so is an immensely strong statement about their wishes.

and its also a measure of the quality of these people who put their life on the line WITHOUT wanting to be armed. Its incredibly brave of somebody to volunteer to do that job without the desire to be armed, i think it takes more courage to do that job unarmed than i does to do it with a gun strapped to your side like the fat, yankie, dohnut eating cops do

Oh and Johnrich, its very nice of you to have a personal attack on my girlfriend, but looking at our picture...all i'd say is this, you're an easy taget yourself, but i'd get banned for saying how you look... so be thankful there are over zealous mods in here, or my comments about your appearence would be a bit harsh

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Jimbo 0]

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i think it takes more courage to do that job unarmed than i does to do it with a gun strapped to your side

Why? After all, there isn't a culture of violence over there. There's simply no need for a gun. Isn't that what you've been telling us all this time?

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like the fat, yankie, dohnut eating cops do

Now you're just making an ass of yourself.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.