rehmwa 2 #26 November 9, 2005 QuoteThat's Mr. Afterbirth to you, pal. this is thanks I get for standing behind you... while bullets are flying with a bat in my hand standing far behind you and tree ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #27 November 9, 2005 QuoteYou guys don't see anything wrong with companies inflating prices during a state of emergency and exploiting those suffering through the catastophe? Morally, yes I do have a problem with it. Economically, no. The concept of corporate responsibility has been inflated to the point where we expect and legally demand that corporations not act like the profit-motivated entities they are and give us their property...if it's an "emergency" and we "need" it. However, consumers do have options besides running to the government to force a company to give them what they want, ie buying gas from someone who knows how to help and who demonstrates their commitment to a community in trouble, and not buying gas from those who exploit. Free market, and all that.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #28 November 9, 2005 ***So let me get your positions straight. You guys don't see anything wrong with companies inflating prices during a state of emergency and exploiting those suffering through the catastophe Let me belabor the obvious for those that need it It is a "demand" driven commodity.........soooo that means with a big demand (ie hurricane panic buying) and a low supply (ie shutting in gulf rigs)that price is going to go up......they aren't being kept artificially low or to the best of my knowledge they arent being artificially inflated either.....couple that with a few refineries being shut down and increased demand from other end users you see prices climb.........you dont happen to remember gold going up over $900 an ounce do you?Would you attribute that event to the "greed" of the gold companies?So why isnt it still $900 an ounce?Suppose it might have had something to do with supply and demand? And allow me get YOUR positon straight......... You dont think ANY company is entitled to make a profit for their shareholders and that prices on commodities should be kept artificially low and not reflect changing market conditions? Stalin would love that kind of viewpoint! Disgusting isn't it?Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,589 #29 November 9, 2005 QuoteIt is a "demand" driven commodity.........soooo that means with a big demand (ie hurricane panic buying) and a low supply (ie shutting in gulf rigs)that price is going to go up The gasoline that the stations are selling was bought for a much lower price. Yes, they will have to buy more expensive gas next, but the time between when those rigs closed (which reopened largely) and when the gasoline hits the pumps is a pretty long time. The grocery store owner who decides to start selling water bottles for $15 each is also right in your eyes I'd guess. After all, his customers' taps don't work, so it must be harder to get. There's nothing wrong with price fluctuations. But state of emergency help in price setting is probably a good thing; some people will abuse any system, and good people are more likely to follow bad ones when they have the example in front of them. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #30 November 9, 2005 Quoteconsumers do have options besides running to the government to force a company to give them what they want, ie buying gas from someone who knows how to help and who demonstrates their commitment to a community in trouble, and not buying gas from those who exploit. Free market, and all that. Except when ALL of the companies do it. That's called collusion, that's NOT a free market. It's an oligopoly. Oligopolies are not part of a FREE market. They are harmful to a free market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #31 November 9, 2005 Quotesoooo that means with a big demand (ie hurricane panic buying) and a low supply (ie shutting in gulf rigs)that price is going to go up Without a doubt. But not the DAY of the disaster when the product is already at the retail locations. It will cause FUTURE cost increases. What the oil companies did is no different than people selling plywood for $50/sheet the day before a hurricane. Quoteyou dont happen to remember gold going up over $900 an ounce do you? Ummm...economics 101...gold is a commodity gasoline is not. QuoteYou dont think ANY company is entitled to make a profit for their shareholders and that prices on commodities should be kept artificially low and not reflect changing market conditions? Not even close. I believe in a free market economy. I don't believe in oligopolies wielding power. That's detrimental to a free market economy. That's also covered in economics 101. And again, gasoline is not a commodity. Its price is not set by the market. Its price is set by the oil companies. Do you think public utilities should be able to charge whatever they want? You have to look at these issues a little more deeply than capitalism means any company can do whatever they want. If electricity were priced as high as the market would bear, most electronic devices that make our life easier probably wouldn't even exist. Gasoline is vital to our economy and its price affects the price of all other consumer goods because gasoline is required to get it virtually everything to the consumer. Personally, I'd prefer if gas were $10/gallon. I only use about 4 gallons a month myself and maybe then people would conserve more or look for alternates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #32 November 9, 2005 QuoteOligopolies are not part of a FREE market. Nor are price controls. The difference is that the gas companies cannot coerce consumers (alliteration points for me) into buying their gas, but the government can coerce companies into artificially lowering the prices they charge. I'd say the former is more "free market" than the latter, and I'd rather have an oligopoly than socialism.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #33 November 9, 2005 ***Except when ALL of the companies do it. That's called collusion, that's NOT a free market. It's an oligopoly. Painting with a pretty broad brush today hmmm? How many oil/energy companies in the US? At least several thousand come to mind.......sounds like a great big conspiracy to me Say...... you dont by any chance happen to believe in the Bavarian Illuminati too?Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #34 November 9, 2005 Quotegas companies cannot coerce consumers (alliteration points for me) into buying their gas, They don't have to. It's as necessary as water, electricity, and telephones. Who the fuck is talking about socialism? Do you even know what socialism is? Because it has nothing to do with price controls. No offense but you guys really need to take some economics classes if you're going to debate this stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #35 November 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteconsumers do have options besides running to the government to force a company to give them what they want, ie buying gas from someone who knows how to help and who demonstrates their commitment to a community in trouble, and not buying gas from those who exploit. Free market, and all that. Except when ALL of the companies do it. That's called collusion, that's NOT a free market. It's an oligopoly. Oligopolies are not part of a FREE market. They are harmful to a free market. You're forgetting though that demand was peaking before the hurricanes joined the fray, and one other eensy-weensy-detail...the main reason for high costs of energy can be traced to one group: the US federal, state and local governments and its existing massive regulation on this industry, requiring 50 different fomulations of gasoline and other unproven measures to appease a tiny group of tree-huggers and PC-oriented politicians who have not allowed this industry to build a new refinery in 30+ years, or explore for oil in areas that are out sight of common man (CA, Gulf of Mexico, Alaska, etc). Plain and simple. There's no shortage of oil out there, only a shortage of ability to create a supply. You want prices to drop, de-regulate the industry. Telecom, airline fares, etc are all proof that the model of deregulation works. These oil companies would like nothing more than to produce more product and sell it at a volume discount. Less regulation would create a more streamlined efficient production model which increases production, increases reinvestment, lowers cost and...oh my god...creates jobs. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #36 November 9, 2005 ***Ummm...economics 101...gold is a commodity gasoline is not. Uhhhh........dont tell the people trading gasoline futures on the NYMEX its not a commodity........they would suffer serious injuries from the fits of laughter that would follow Perhaps Econ 580 (grad economics) would be more to your likingMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #37 November 9, 2005 QuoteDo you even know what socialism is? Because it has nothing to do with price controls. Price controls and the distribution of goods (in this case gas) are a facet of government planning of the economy, hence socialism. I wasn't calling you a socialist or anything, but price controls enforced by the government don't really lend themselves to free-market type thinking.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #38 November 9, 2005 QuoteYou want prices to drop No...I think I said that I don't. I want companies not to take advantage of a state of disaster. Why am I apparently the only one that think you shouldn't hose off a drowning man? QuoteTelecom, airline fares, etc are all proof that the model of deregulation works. Enron, Worldcom, US Air. Yep...works great. QuoteThese oil companies would like nothing more than to produce more product and sell it at a volume discount. That's bull. They are hoarding cash. That's a fact. They are not paying it out to share holders, they are not investing it. If they wanted to drop prices they could very easily, without affecting share holders in the slightest. Quotethe US federal, state and local governments and its existing massive regulation on this industry, requiring 50 different fomulations of gasoline and other unproven measures to appease a tiny group of tree-huggers and PC-oriented politicians who have not allowed this industry to build a new refinery in 30+ years, That I agree with you..but has nothing to do with this discussion. QuoteLess regulation would create a more streamlined efficient production model which increases production, increases reinvestment, lowers cost and...oh my god...creates jobs. Again..that is incorrect. Cash leads to all of those things. They have more of it than anyone in the world and aren't spending any of it on increasing production, reinvesting, hiring, or even giving it back to shareholders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SudsyFist 0 #39 November 9, 2005 QuoteLess regulation would create a more streamlined efficient production model which increases production, increases reinvestment, lowers cost and...oh my god...creates jobs. Ideally, yes. But how realistic is that? What are the potential costs/drawbacks to deregulating a very large and critical industry which has been built around the foundation of its regulation? *cough* *cough* California energy dereg *cough* *cough* You can't just paint the future with an idealist's brush; there are sooooo many facets to the question of deregulation of the oil industry, many consider it not worthwhile to even consider at this point (think big 5 consulting firms and study, study, study, $$$, $$$, $$$). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #40 November 9, 2005 QuoteUhhhh........dont tell the people trading gasoline futures on the NYMEX its not a commodity You're right...my mistake. I was referring to gasoline at the pump is not priced by a market price. Just like a gold chain is not priced based on the market price of gold. Yes, gasoline futures are traded. Gasoline at the pump is not. The price at the pump is set by the oil companies, not by the market. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #41 November 9, 2005 >Telecom, airline fares, etc are all proof that the model of >deregulation works. A more accurate example would be California energy deregulation, since we're talking frangible units of energy and not specific services (like a flight between points A and B that people can choose between.) And California's energy deregulation was an unmitigated disaster. So I don't think you can bolster that argument with history. That being said, I agree that we don't need such a large list of formulations for gasoline. A national list of a few formulations, with recommendations for each state, might help matters. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #42 November 9, 2005 QuoteThey are hoarding cash. That's a fact. They are not paying it out to share holders, they are not investing it. Seems like a pretty bad business practice to simply horde money instead of using it to expand and to make more money. It seems like any company which really engaged in that practice wouldn't have made it far enough to even be of consequence in the whole price gouging debate.Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #43 November 9, 2005 QuoteHow many oil/energy companies in the US? At least several thousand come to mind.......sounds like a great big conspiracy to me How many different gas company stations in your home town, your home state? Methinks you're including a whole lot of non-oil companies in your count. And even then, the vast majority of gasoline is produced by the top 5 companies. If you don't think they wield influence over the others, you're deluding yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #44 November 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteThey are hoarding cash. That's a fact. They are not paying it out to share holders, they are not investing it. Seems like a pretty bad business practice to simply horde money instead of using it to expand and to make more money. It seems like any company which really engaged in that practice wouldn't have made it far enough to even be of consequence in the whole price gouging debate. yeah, you would think so wouldn't you. You'd think your competitors would wipe you out. Problem is, they DON'T HAVE COMPETITORS. Amazing how all of the big 5 are doing the same thing, participating in the same bad business practice. If one of them stopped they would all have to to remain competetive. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that they're all makine the same mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #45 November 9, 2005 >Oligopolies are not part of a FREE market. They are harmful to a free market. It's only an oligopoly if people are colluding to set prices. If they all decide to not build new refineries because they don't think it's a good long term investment, and there are shortages as a result, that's capitalism at work. And once there are shortages, and prices rise - again, basic economics. Everyone likes it when capitalism drives prices down for consumers. But it's important to remember that the driving force behind capitalism is not altruism, it's greed. If the system allows people to make money they will make as much of it as they can. If a resource becomes scarce (like real estate, gas, coal, even orange juice) then its price goes up, for the same reasons. Imagine the following. Joe owns two houses, one he bought 20 years ago and one he just bought recently because his family is getting bigger. He tries to sell the old house for market value, which in that area is $400,000. Someone comes up to Joe and wants to buy his old house. "But you better sell it for $50,000, because you bought it for $40,000, and more than a 20% profit is gouging!" Joe replies "It's not gouging. That's the fair market value, and I expected to make money." They say "You're in collusion with all the other sellers around here to drive the prices up! You're just selling it for $400,000 because the guy next door sold his for $390,000! We are a homeless family and we NEED that house! How dare you gouge the poor families of this city." Joe replies "Hey, tough titties. Don't buy it if you don't want to." They say "But I NEED housing! It's a necessity!" Joe might reply "Buy something cheaper, or live somewhere else. Now outta my way, I gotta put another ad in the paper." Who's right in the above exchange? Both people are. It's how capitalism works. Now, if you can prove that oil companies are behind the scenes fixing prices, then you would have a good case. But since gas prices seem to rise and fall in direct relationship to demand, that could be hard to prove. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #46 November 9, 2005 QuoteNow, if you can prove that oil companies are behind the scenes fixing prices, then you would have a good case. But since gas prices seem to rise and fall in direct relationship to demand, that could be hard to prove. And now you get back to the point I made in the first place before everyone started trying to brand me as a socialist. I DO NOT support a windfall tax, or a penalty, or any other kind of action against the oil companies for making a profit. I DO THINK that there is sufficient circumstantial evidence of collusion and price gouging to warrant an investigation. People above seem to be defending collusion and price gouging as free market capitalism. That's wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #47 November 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteYou want prices to drop No...I think I said that I don't. I want companies not to take advantage of a state of disaster. Why am I apparently the only one that think you shouldn't hose off a drowning man? I was posing that as a general question. QuoteQuoteTelecom, airline fares, etc are all proof that the model of deregulation works. Enron, Worldcom, US Air. Yep...works great. Yes it does. Energy has not been deregulated to the extent telecom has. Verizon, BellSouth, Vonage, more LD and VoIP choices than you can shake a stick at. In my po-dunk town (pop. 25K), there are about 30 choices for local phone service where there used to be one. The Airlines are in trouble because of their own costs, not because people aren't flying in record capacities. QuoteQuoteThese oil companies would like nothing more than to produce more product and sell it at a volume discount. That's bull. They are hoarding cash. That's a fact. They are not paying it out to share holders, they are not investing it. If they wanted to drop prices they could very easily, without affecting share holders in the slightest. I'll use the big cheese as an example: ExxonMobil. Excluding Katrina and Rita, their output fell 1%. Capital expenditures soared to $4.41B (up from $3.63B the year before). QuoteQuotethe US federal, state and local governments and its existing massive regulation on this industry, requiring 50 different fomulations of gasoline and other unproven measures to appease a tiny group of tree-huggers and PC-oriented politicians who have not allowed this industry to build a new refinery in 30+ years, That I agree with you..but has nothing to do with this discussion. It has everything to do with it. These hearing are a show about the record profits and why pump prices are so high. Pump prices are high because of demand exceeding the companies ability to create a supply due to no new refineries, constantly changing formulation standards and global demand pushing the futures market to new records. QuoteQuoteLess regulation would create a more streamlined efficient production model which increases production, increases reinvestment, lowers cost and...oh my god...creates jobs. Again..that is incorrect. Cash leads to all of those things. They have more of it than anyone in the world and aren't spending any of it on increasing production, reinvesting, hiring, or even giving it back to shareholders. Exxon pays dividends to its shareholders. ConocoPhillips pays dividends to its shareholders. BP Amoco pays dividends to its shareholders. Chevron pays dividends to its shareholders. The industry is very responsive to its investors. If you read just the bullets of their investor news, they reinvest a significant amount of revenue, profits and increase capital expenditures.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #48 November 9, 2005 >I DO THINK that there is sufficient circumstantial evidence of >collusion and price gouging to warrant an investigation. Well, that's the $64,000 question. If a commodity is getting scarce, how can you tell high prices due to collusion from high prices due to scarcity? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lefty 0 #49 November 9, 2005 QuoteI wasn't calling you a socialist ^^^me Quoteeveryone started trying to brand me as a socialist ^^^you I wasn't calling you a socialist...Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful. -Calvin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ReBirth 0 #50 November 9, 2005 If you call me a socialist one more time i'm going to get pissy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
