CA Election Results

[ReBirth 0]

How is the state hiding information by not requiring consent?

Hiding something is an overt act. Not requiring something....isn't.

[Amazon 7]

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I got my first briefing on the Reduction In Force (RIF) when Bush Sr. was still commander in chief

That was called the " Peace Dividend" after Ronnie won the Cold War all by himself.

[Nightingale 0]

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73 - Requires teenager's parents to be notified before an abortion.
- What's the problem with this?

The problem with that is that if a girl is too scared to come to her parents if she's pregnant, there is a huge problem there in the relationship and trust between parent and child. It's not a law problem; it's a parenting problem. I know when I was in high school if I or one of my friends got pregnant or got someone pregnant, our parents would've been the FIRST people we talked to, because they'd made it very clear to us that if something like that happened, they'd be disappointed and probably upset, but would help us work through it. Heck, I'm almost 27 now, and if I got pregnant unexpectedly, my mom would be the second person I'd tell. Build a strong relationship with your children, and you won't have to worry about whether they'll have an abortion without telling you.

If a teen feels that she can't go to her parents, she will find another way to deal with her situation.
Either:
1. hide the pregnancy (sometimes babies end up in dumpsters because of this)
2. run away
3. have the abortion in a different state.
4. have the abortion at an unscruplous clinic where they wouldn't ask for an ID
5. have the abortion in an unsafe manner.
6. get a fake ID (hey, they get them to buy beer and cigarettes all the time)

Just because the law says that the parents have to be notified doesn't mean that the teen will cooperate.

[Trent 0]

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How is the state hiding information by not requiring consent?

Hiding something is an overt act. Not requiring something....isn't.

Can the parents, who are solely responsible for the minor, find out about and abortion? Do minors need permission for any other voluntary medical procedures?

Allowing kids to get abortions without consent, IS the state helping the kids hide the pregnancy and the procedure. Can the parents find out about it from the state or doctors? Nope?

An interesting side-effect... here in Texas, minors can't sign away any rights. If the clinics make them sign "hold harmless" agreements in the event that something goes wrong, would it hold up in court if something DID go wrong?

Oh, hello again!

[ReBirth 0]

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Allowing kids to get abortions without consent, IS the state helping the kids hide the pregnancy and the procedure.

So is the state helping me get drunk nightly because there's no law against it? Your rationale is off. Not restricting you from doing something is NOT the same as helping you to do it.

[rasmack 0]

I fail to see why it is the state's jobs to legislate your (not you personally) kids into behaving decently. That is your job as a parent. I would hope that my (future) children would come to me with stuff like that, and I will do my best to raise them in a non-judgemental atmosphere that makes it natural.

It seems that your credo is the good old: Trust is good. Control is better.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[kallend 2,150]

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I fail to see why it is the state's jobs to legislate your (not you personally) kids into behaving decently. That is your job as a parent. I would hope that my (future) children would come to me with stuff like that, and I will do my best to raise them in a non-judgemental atmosphere that makes it natural.

It seems that your credo is the good old: Trust is good. Control is better.

The credo is, in fact, the State should not interfere with the freedom of the people EXCEPT in support of the agenda of the Christian Right.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Trent 0]

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The credo is, in fact, the State should not interfere with the freedom of the people EXCEPT in support of the agenda of the Christian Right.

That's pretty paranoid. I don't think you'd meet one person who would call me a member of the "christian right".

And for all 3 of you... I'm arguing that the state should not make an exception for minors to have abortions without parental consent, when they can't do anything else without consent. Why would you make an exception for something like abortion? I'm sure everyone would hope they raised their children to approach them with a problem, but that won't always happen... no matter how well you did. Are you all for eliminating the drinking age too, since people should have raised their kids not to do it and that should be good enough? Kids make bad decisions all the time, I just don't think the state should facilitate that by not requiring consent for abortions.

If kids don't need consent for a medical procedure like an abortion, why don't we just lower the age of independence altogether?

And no one bothered to think about this still...

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An interesting side-effect... here in Texas, minors can't sign away any rights. If the clinics make them sign "hold harmless" agreements in the event that something goes wrong, would it hold up in court if something DID go wrong?

Oh, hello again!

[ReBirth 0]

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Are you all for eliminating the drinking age too, since people should have raised their kids not to do it and that should be good enough?

Yes. I don't know about you, but I drank under age. My parents let me. They'd rather have me drink a few beers at home, then go somewhere else to hide it from them and then get in a car to come home.

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Kids make bad decisions all the time, I just don't think the state should facilitate that by not requiring consent for abortions.

And so do a lot of parents. Like forcing kids who aren't psychologically capable of dealing with it to continue their pregnancy. I don't think the courts should facilitate parents to take this decision away from the person it will affect for the rest of their lives.

Bottom line is any kid with a good relationship with their parents will probably talk with them about it anyway. Any kid who doesn't, would probably rather go to a back alley for the abortion or kill themselves.

[Trent 0]

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Yes. I don't know about you, but I drank under age. My parents let me. They'd rather have me drink a few beers at home, then go somewhere else to hide it from them and then get in a car to come home.

So, you had your parents' consent? And that was a good thing? Okay, now why wouldn't it be for an abortion?

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Bottom line is any kid with a good relationship with their parents will probably talk with them about it anyway. Any kid who doesn't, would probably rather go to a back alley for the abortion or kill themselves.

I think this is a cop-out. On one hand, parents are almost solely responsible for the health and well-being of their child. The parents pretty much hold the rights of their children until they're 18, legally. Why would allowing kids to NOT get consent for a medical procedure like an abortion, set up a special case scenario. Is it just because some people in this country are OBSESSED with abortions and seem to think that everyone should have one?

Still haven't answered my question about liability and waiving rights.

Oh, hello again!

[GTAVercetti 0]

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Yes. I don't know about you, but I drank under age. My parents let me. They'd rather have me drink a few beers at home, then go somewhere else to hide it from them and then get in a car to come home.

So, you had your parents' consent? And that was a good thing? Okay, now why wouldn't it be for an abortion?

That argument is false. He had his parents consent in defiance of the law. In other words, his parents did not rely on a law to be a parent. REQUIRING parental consent by the government is not the same; one is voluntary, the other is not.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ReBirth 0]

GTA addressed the consent part, so I'll skip that.

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Why would allowing kids to NOT get consent for a medical procedure like an abortion, set up a special case scenario.

Because an abortion is unique in that the psychological and life altering consequences of the decision either way will be carried by the individual forever. No one should make that decision for anyone else, whether its the gov't or parents. Getting a mole removed or getting your tonsils out is a different story.

Please drop the rhetoric about people thinking everyone should have an abortion. No one thinks that. Some people do think that everyone should have the ability to get one in a safe environment WITHOUT anyone else interfering.

As far as liability and waiving rights, if as you claim this is an exception to the law to allow teens to get an abortion, than it should be a no brainer granting an exception to civil liability for those providing the service provided they are properly trained and licensed to do so.

[billvon 3,120]

>Why would allowing kids to NOT get consent for a medical procedure
> like an abortion, set up a special case scenario.

It is not. If a 16 year old requests (and gets) an HIV test in CA, then the results are provided to them and not their parents. Same is true with STD treatment, alcohol abuse treatment, and drug abuse treatment. Treatment for mental health problems is optional; the health care provider can decide on their own whether to inform the parents. For general medical treatment of anyone over 15, the health care provider can inform the parents if they so choose.

>Is it just because some people in this country are OBSESSED with
>abortions and seem to think that everyone should have one?

Nope.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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>Is it just because some people in this country are OBSESSED with
>abortions and seem to think that everyone should have one?

Nope.

billvon, can I get an abortion? I mean, I lack a uterus, but everyone should have them right?

Please? please!?!?

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[wmw999 2,589]

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billvon, can I get an abortion?

If you get pregnant (a common prerequisite for abortions ), I'll bet that the financial reward for selling your story and exclusive pictures (with your genitalia tastefully blurred) would be such that you would have no interest in an abortion

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GTAVercetti 0]

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billvon, can I get an abortion?

If you get pregnant (a common prerequisite for abortions ), I'll bet that the financial reward for selling your story and exclusive pictures (with your genitalia tastefully blurred) would be such that you would have no interest in an abortion

Wendy W.

this is true. That is it.

if I get pregnant, I am keeping it!

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ReBirth 0]

Ok...I rescind my earlier statement. If YOU get preganant I do want you to get an abortion.

[Trent 0]

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That argument is false. He had his parents consent in defiance of the law. In other words, his parents did not rely on a law to be a parent. REQUIRING parental consent by the government is not the same; one is voluntary, the other is not.

Where I grew up, if I recall correctly, minors CAN drink in the company of their parents. That's consent. Otherwise, parents are left to hoping that they raised their kids right AND the law to make sure they don't drink at high school keggers.

For ReBirth:

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Because an abortion is unique in that the psychological and life altering consequences of the decision either way will be carried by the individual forever.

So in a case of unique and psychologically important medical procedures, consent SHOULDN'T be required, hell, notification even? You're saying it's okay to have some kind of "unimportant" surgery... which usually requires consent, but "life-altering" procedures should be left to the sole discretion of the minor? Whether or not parents can give the "go" or "no go" for that, I think that they definitely have the right to know about it, since, as you say, it has such an effect on the child's life.

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Please drop the rhetoric about people thinking everyone should have an abortion. No one thinks that. Some people do think that everyone should have the ability to get one in a safe environment WITHOUT anyone else interfering.

No. I think there are some people so obsessed with abortion that they lose sight of reality. You and Bill can say that's not true, but I've met people fitting the bill. Having a safe and responsible place to have it done is one thing, as long as it is legal... there must be places like that. Not requiring notification or consent of parents isn't interfering. Why would you say in one sentence that it is so life-altering and psychologically important, then in another say that parents shouldn't be involved? For every kid out there that you say would see a back-alley clinic, I bet there are more who SHOULD have to talk with their parents at least after the fact to help them through the rough times.

For Bill:

This ISN'T a drug test, and HIV test, or a mental health screening. This is an actual medical procedure. How many other medical procedures can be performed without consent and or notification of the guardian?

Yes, parents SHOULD know what is going on. But even the best parents can have the wool pulled over their eyes. As long as the parent is responsible for that kid legally, I don't think they should be left in the dark about any medical procedures like an abortion. Now if you all want the "legal" age to just drop to 15, then fine... let them out on their own. If you guys think they can make the life-altering decision of an abortion on their own... they should also be able to drink, smoke, vote, serve in the military, and go to jail if they do something wrong. Right?

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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billvon, can I get an abortion? I mean, I lack a uterus, but everyone should have them right?

Please? please!?!?

Since when did some people = billvon?

But it's funny because it reminds me of the "Life of Brian" skit where the dude wants to have a baby.

"You cannot have a baby, because you don't have a uterus!!"

"But I should have the right to have a baby, even though I cannot have a baby because I do not have a uterus"

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,120]

>This ISN'T a drug test, and HIV test, or a mental health screening.
>This is an actual medical procedure. How many other medical
> procedures can be performed without consent and or notification of
> the guardian?

Any of them. If the patient is over 15, then the medical provider can make his own call on telling parents. When it comes to treatment for alcohol or drug addiction - even when they administer drugs - they CANNOT, by law, tell the parents. This is because such notification might result in people not getting the care they need.

If you want to get those laws changed, fine. Until then, abortion gets treated like any other medical procedure where parental notification might prevent people from getting care. It's a medical procedure, not a political football for anti-abortionists to use in their quest to outlaw abortion.

[GTAVercetti 0]

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billvon, can I get an abortion? I mean, I lack a uterus, but everyone should have them right?

Please? please!?!?

Since when did some people = billvon?

But it's funny because it reminds me of the "Life of Brian" skit where the dude wants to have a baby.

"You cannot have a baby, because you don't have a uterus!!"

"But I should have the right to have a baby, even though I cannot have a baby because I do not have a uterus"

And that is why it is funny.

And since some people is a subset, billvon could easily be of that subset. I did not have the time nor do I have the inclination to ask all of some people.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[ReBirth 0]

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Why would you say in one sentence that it is so life-altering and psychologically important, then in another say that parents shouldn't be involved?

When did I ever say parents shouldn't be involved? That's where you keep losing me. I said a pregnant teen shouldn't be forced to involve their parents if they don't want to. If they don't want to involve them in a decision that important, I've got to think there's a damn good reason for it. Like maybe they're afraid of being forced to do something they rather wouldn't that would screw up their lives forever.

No one is trying to take parents out of the loop. We just don't want them forced into the picture through legislation.

[Trent 0]

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It's a medical procedure, not a political football for anti-abortionists to use in their quest to outlaw abortion.

The fix is in:
It's a medical procedure, not a political football for abortionists to use in their quest to outlaw parental rights.

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When did I ever say parents shouldn't be involved? That's where you keep losing me. I said a pregnant teen shouldn't be forced to involve their parents if they don't want to. If they don't want to involve them in a decision that important, I've got to think there's a damn good reason for it. Like maybe they're afraid of being forced to do something they rather wouldn't that would screw up their lives forever.

Some kids wouldn't want to involve their parents just because they'd be disappointed in them. Not every kid that doesn't want to talk to their parents has bad parents. You see it as parents being forced into the loop, I see it as parents being forced out.

I sincerely hope that when we become parents that we raise our kids to talk to us about any problems they have. But I also hope that none of us have kids that have abortions or drug problems that, for whatever reason, we are never told about by our kids or the people providing treatment. It can and probably does happen, and without notification or consent, you have no choice but to stay in the dark no matter how good a parent you are.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 3,120]

>I sincerely hope that when we become parents that we raise our kids
> to talk to us about any problems they have. But I also hope that
> none of us have kids that have abortions or drug problems that, for
> whatever reason, we are never told about by our kids or the people
> providing treatment.

I agree with the above. But if my kids (god forbid) do have a drug problem that they are determined to hide from me, I prefer they go to a doctor than to a drug dealer for help.

[ReBirth 0]

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Some kids wouldn't want to involve their parents just because they'd be disappointed in them. Not every kid that doesn't want to talk to their parents has bad parents.

Very true. But what do you think a kid who doesn't want to tell their parents will do if they can't LEGALLY get an abortion without telling them? Maybe get an illegal one, from someone who hasn't been trained and certified.