Correct or Incorrect Ruling In Your Opinion

[lawrocket 3]

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From the 9th Curcit Court of Appeals

QUOTE: "There is no fundamental right of parents to be the exclusive provider of information regarding sexual matters to their children... Parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students."

When I see the words "fundamental right" it tells me that the court is refusing to apply "strict scrutiny" to the law. Instead, the courts merely held that the government must show a "rational basis" for this law. The court completed your quote with"We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students. Finally, we hold that the defendants' actions were rationally related to a legitimate state purpose."

For an explanation of the levels of scrutiny I gave a couple of years ago, see this thread and some responses following it. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=722626#722626

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[bodypilot90 0]

wrong, the school system does not have the right to ask 1st graders if they think about touching others sexual parts, to 1st graders??????

[ReBirth 0]

Who's teaching sex ed in 1st grade?

[SudsyFist 0]

Nice. Thanks!

[rushmc 23]

Hey Thanks!!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rickjump1 0]

I think the 9th Circuit of Appeals has written off the American family as gone so they must determine what's best for every child regardless of what real family hold-outs think. Like the man said, attend those school board meetings and get ready to change schools.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[bodypilot90 0]

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Who's teaching sex ed in 1st grade?

The school system involved gave sex surveys to 1st, 3rd and 5th graders, the parents were not told in advance. Do liberals really think that's right?

[livendive 8]

Correct.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[RhondaLea 4]

If parents were to start teaching their children early--i.e., as soon as their children start to ask questions--this wouldn't be an issue.

I always answered my daughter's questions, and when she was four, she found a copy of A Child is Born in the discount bin at the grocery store (go figure). She wanted it, I bought it, we talked about the things she didn't understand.

She has never been afraid to talk to me about sex...or anything else, for that matter (although sometimes she would procrastinate too long, to her detriment).

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[ReBirth 0]

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Who's teaching sex ed in 1st grade?

The school system involved gave sex surveys to 1st, 3rd and 5th graders, the parents were not told in advance. Do liberals really think that's right?

Hmmm...I didn't see anything about that, but I may have missed it. If the school actually did ask detailed sex questions of 1st graders without parental permission. than I, as a liberal, am not ok with that. But I didn't see that anywhere. If the questions were worded in such a way that the children wouldn't know what they were being asked, unless already exposed to it, then I'm ok with it.

[bodypilot90 0]

desided to make it a poll with the facts included

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?poll=1&poll_id=3961&forum_id=35&poll_type=0&post_id=1917629&poll_answer_id=18960&do%3Dpoll_vote%3Bredo%3Dpost_view_flat%3Bpost%3D1917629%3Broot_post%3D1917629%3Bpoll%3Dresults%3B=Vote

[SudsyFist 0]

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"The 9th Circuit did more than rule against parents who were upset that their elementary-school-aged children were being asked explicit questions about sex in class. They told all parents they have no right to protest what public schools tell their children."

Bullshit. Bullshit. And more bullshit.

Of course they have the right to protest; they just have no legal basis to pursue their protest of school content in the courts. Go directly to school board. Do not pass GO.

As for the absolute (IMHO) disrespect and inappropriateness of putting that survey out to the kids without clearly advising the parents of its content with an opt-out... Go directly to school board. Do not pass GO.

[rasmack 0]

Since you like "facts". Here is the opinion of the court. I direct your attention to this:

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We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information
to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students.

In other words. Parents are free to find another school if the disagree with this one.

Also you will note that

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The letter did not explicitly state that some questions involved sexual topics, although it did specify that the survey questions were about “early trauma (for example, violence)” and there was a warning that “answering questions may make [the] child feel uncomfortable.”

If you (not you personally) as a parent can not see that this includes studying the abundance of sexual abuse in the studied population, then I think I would consider you a bit naïve.

The questions with sexual references are on page 6.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[bodypilot90 0]

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We also hold that parents have no due process or privacy right to override the determinations of public schools as to the information
to which their children will be exposed while enrolled as students.

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In other words. Parents are free to find another school if the disagree with this one

Where does it say that? Are they going to give the parents vouchers?

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If you (not you personally) as a parent can not see that this includes studying the abundance of sexual abuse in the studied population, then I think I would consider you a bit naïve

the survey was flawed and everyone involved in it should be axed. I have heard there is now talk of breaking up the 9th, and it can't be done to soon.

[rasmack 0]

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In other words. Parents are free to find another school if the disagree with this one

Where does it say that? Are they going to give the parents vouchers?

I don't know much about your country, but are you telling me that you have no choice, where you send your children?

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If you (not you personally) as a parent can not see that this includes studying the abundance of sexual abuse in the studied population, then I think I would consider you a bit naïve

the survey was flawed and everyone involved in it should be axed. I have heard there is now talk of breaking up the 9th, and it can't be done to soon.

That opinion does not change the fact that parents should able to add two and two together and figure out that "early trauma" just might include psychological damage from sexual abuse.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[bodypilot90 0]

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I don't know much about your country, but are you telling me that you have no choice, where you send your children?

In the school system i work for there are kids that life next door to a school and must ride the bus 20 miles to a school. Sad and burns not only fuel but tax money

as long as you want to pay for it. That's why a lot of people think vouchers are the way to go.

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That opinion does not change the fact that parents should able to add two and two together and figure out that "early trauma" just might include psychological damage from sexual abuse.

how hard would it to include what was asked.


btw here is what was asked.....


1) touching my private parts to much
2) think about having sex
3) think about touching others private parts
4)think about sex, when i don't want to
5)washing myself because i feel dirty on the inside
6)not trusting people because they might want to have sex
7)Getting scared or upset when i think about sex
8)having sex feelings in my body
9)Can't stop thinking about sex
10)getting upset when people talk about sex

to 7 year olds?

[Lindsey 0]

That opinion does not change the fact that parents should able to add two and two together and figure out that "early trauma" just might include psychological damage from sexual abuse.

One might also expect, as I would, that a questionnaire given to 7 y/o's, approved by the school board, would not be something that would, itself, be damaging. Questioning 7 y/o children about whether they touch, or want to touch, other children's genitals is WAAAAY out of line.

I should not have to find another public school for my child to attend in order to avoid this scenario. Whether it's an issue for the courts to settle, though, is not so clear to me. I would think that the school board is a better place to resolve it. I doubt that it's a mistake that will be made more than once.

As far as sex education in the schools, I think that it's appropriate only as far as teaching about human reproduction, sexually transmitted diesease, and how one protects against it. But, again, this is not content meant for 7 y/o's either, until we start teaching human physiology in 2nd grade....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rasmack 0]

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I don't know much about your country, but are you telling me that you have no choice, where you send your children?

In the school system i work for there are kids that life next door to a school and must ride the bus 20 miles to a school. Sad and burns not only fuel but tax money

In that case that is what is wrong with your school system. You wouldn't believe how cooperative a school board can get when the parents can just move the children across the road.

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how hard would it to include what was asked.

In all honesty that would probably contaminate the data gathered...

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btw here is what was asked.....

I know. I suppose you cut 'n' pasted from the link I posted above We do not disagree that the questions were rather... tasteless (in lack of a better word) but I hardly see kids being damaged by them. If you ever meet someone who works in a kindergarten, try and ask them what the children play when they think the grown-ups aren't watching

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Lindsey 0]

I think that those types of questions for children of this age ARE damaging. There definitely are kindergarten children for whom these questions may have been appropriate, but it's sad that they've been exposed at such a young age to subjects that aren't appropriate for them. That doesn't mean that the rest of the children, whose parents are thoughtful about their upbringing, should have these issues dumped on them. There is no justification, imho.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[rasmack 0]

Oh well, I suppose we'll just have to respectfully disagree and leave it at that
(Damn, we didn't even get to the name-calling! )

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I think that those types of questions for children of this age ARE damaging. There definitely are kindergarten children for whom these questions may have been appropriate, but it's sad that they've been exposed at such a young age to subjects that aren't appropriate for them. That doesn't mean that the rest of the children, whose parents are thoughtful about their upbringing, should have these issues dumped on them. There is no justification, imho

Why? Humans are sexual beings from the moment they are born. Babies get erections, young children play doctor exploring feelings and questions they have...it is a pretty natural process. Unfortunately, it is one adults are generally not comfortbale with.

[wmw999 2,584]

Lindsey > I think that those types of questions
> for children of this age ARE damaging

SkyDekker > Why? Humans are sexual beings
> from the moment they are born

That's why the permission slip should have more clearly identified the nature of the survey. Some probably objected because of the references to violence that WERE included in the permission slip.

I'm not sure if I'd sign the slip. I do know that I'd have no problem with other kids being given the test if I hadn't signed it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rasmack 0]

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That's why the permission slip should have more clearly identified the nature of the survey. Some probably objected because of the references to violence that WERE included in the permission slip.

The survey was about factors that would impact learning ability in a negative way. Sexual abuse is exactly such a thing. However most parents would probably perceive it as insulting if the slip had said "Oh, and by the way we'll be checking if you are sexually abusing your children". Personally I think the wording on the slip was clear enough.

HF #682, Team Dirty Sanchez #227
“I simply hate, detest, loathe, despise, and abhor redundancy.”
- Not quite Oscar Wilde...

[Nightingale 0]

Good ruling.

If a parent doesn't want their child hearing what a public school will teach them, they have the option of private school or homeschool. However, both of these options require parents to make an effort to make school and curriculum selections, because private and homeschools don't operate under the same restrictions that public schools do. Because of this, as a former private school teacher, I've found that the quality of private schools varies dramatically from school to school. In the county I live in, there are a surprising number of private school teachers that lack a COLLEGE degree, and even more that have a college degree but no credential. It's disturbing that there are teachers out there that are educating children with no knowledge of educational methodology. They know their subject (at least, I hope they do), but they haven't learned how to teach it.

If parents choose to send their kids to a private school, they need to accept the responsibility for thoroughly investigating the school and teachers, because there is no government agency regulating most of that stuff. A school can get accreditation without having credentialed teachers or teachers with degrees (the school I was at did!) and so parents can't base their evaluation of the school off accreditation alone.

I think that some parents don't want to go through the hassle of homeschool or private school, so they try to mold the public schools into teaching only what they want their child to hear. A public school can't do that, because public schools exist to educate children, not to please parents. If schools only taught a curriculum approved by the parents of every child in the school, they'd end up teaching absolutely nothing.

[rushmc 23]

NOTE: the following question is completely hypothetical....I am just curious.


What would you say if the community had voted in a board did not want this type of education choosing to leave it to the parents. But a small group parents do not agree (but they did not win at the ballot box) so they sue.

The ruling we are talking about is now handed down from the court.

What would your opinion be?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln