The Thanks France Gets...

[masterblaster72 0]

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Problem: Immigrants.
Solution: Deportation.

I think that any country that was arrogant enough to be a colonial power owes it to the populace of those countries it occupied to take those people in. But it doesn't owe them welfare. France's policies are the same as the rest of Europe's -- let 'em all in and give 'em everything. Local politicians in port towns are profiteering BIG TIME from the immigrant traffic, that's one thing that's overlooked in this thread. And the people pay the price.

As far as countries like Denmark and Italy (for example) go, well, I would agree with your policies. I mean, there are heaps of arabs in Denmark, and Denmark never occupied an arab country. If Arabs act up there, they should be sent home as a lesson to others.

In Italy's case, I think Italy has an obligation to those of Libyan, Albanian, Ethiopian, Eritrean and Somali origin. But I don't think Moroccans, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis or Afghanis have any business becoming Italian citizens just for arriving clandestinely on a boat. Yet there are HEAPS of them there, and the government gives them EVERYTHING (even mosques built by the Italian government) for doing NOTHING. Italian families are shrinking because of the cost of living, while immigrant families have several kids that are all supported by Italian government money. And sadly, your average citizen has pity on these immigrants. I just don't get it.

I'm all for a pluralistic society in USA. It's my favorite thing about this country. But in Europe these riots are a sign of things to come in *all* of those countries with lax immigration policies if the problem isn't addressed seriously and effectively.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I honestly can't do much but laugh. Yes, for the sake of the innocent civilians, I hope they get this thing stopped, but overall, ROFLMAO!

Enjoy taking pleasure in the misfortune of others to further an ignorant opinion on another country?

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By the way, did anyone read about how Muslim teens doused a crippled 60 yr old woman in a propellant (while she was in her wheelchair, obviously) and set her ablaze? Wait, Islam is peaceful! Peaceful I say!

Because nothing like this ever happens anywhere else? When somebody makes a soap box out of this sort of tragedy I tune out and can't hear the point they are trying to make. Kick a man while he is down, huh? One set of teens (always a stable mind) represents an entire culture?

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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it is interesting to watch how some americans have this deep seeded rage inside them. How they blame 9/11 for all of this, but seem to forget how 9/11 fortified the western world. The shows of compassion, help, support in all shapes and sizes was truly incredible. It is utterly unbelievable that the tables have turned so much since...

It is easier to walk thru life with the blinders on and not question anything. Leaving the comfort zone of ignorance is too much for many people and may shake the foundations of ignorance they were raised on. Also - short term, selective memory also helps fuel their misguided angst.

Despite our best efforts to piss off the entire world, a large portion of the countries out there offered and organized aid for the Gulf Coast after the string of deadly hurricanes. Most of that aid sat unused as pride got in the way of using what was available. Sure, excuses can be made - but in the long run we choose to borrow money from other places that most likely cannot afford the loss of those funds...esp since our war funds have drained us of so much already.

The only thing worse than ignorance is nationalism fueled by a misguided sense of pride.

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you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[mnealtx 0]

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I think that any country that was arrogant enough to be a colonial power owes it to the populace of those countries it occupied to take those people in. But it doesn't owe them welfare. France's policies are the same as the rest of Europe's -- let 'em all in and give 'em everything. Local politicians in port towns are profiteering BIG TIME from the immigrant traffic, that's one thing that's overlooked in this thread. And the people pay the price.

As far as countries like Denmark and Italy (for example) go, well, I would agree with your policies. I mean, there are heaps of arabs in Denmark, and Denmark never occupied an arab country. If Arabs act up there, they should be sent home as a lesson to others.

In Italy's case, I think Italy has an obligation to those of Libyan, Albanian, Ethiopian, Eritrean and Somali origin. But I don't think Moroccans, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis or Afghanis have any business becoming Italian citizens just for arriving clandestinely on a boat. Yet there are HEAPS of them there, and the government gives them EVERYTHING (even mosques built by the Italian government) for doing NOTHING. Italian families are shrinking because of the cost of living, while immigrant families have several kids that are all supported by Italian government money. And sadly, your average citizen has pity on these immigrants. I just don't get it.

I'm all for a pluralistic society in USA. It's my favorite thing about this country. But in Europe these riots are a sign of things to come in *all* of those countries with lax immigration policies if the problem isn't addressed seriously and effectively.

(bolding mine)
Unfortunately, way too many parallels to the United States' immigration policys and welfare system over the last few decades...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[popsjumper 2]

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....I think the news is really showing some bias by reporting the rioting is being done my "Muslim youths". Maybe they (the media) are doing it intentionally to create sensationalism. I don't know.

Walt

Anything "reported" by the news media of any type should be taken with a grain of salt. "Bias" is soft, "opinion-forming" is harder term and is much closer to the truth IMO.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"The general population doesn't really like them, the government tries to support them under the social policies, and their numbers are growing incredibly fast. Best of luck to France in solving this social problem. "

Its not an easy one old chum, seen it before all over the place.
LA,
Birmingham, Manchester, Brixton (UK)
and it happened before in France in the sixties, although my memories of that are kinda vague

I don't think its down to religion as some here may be suggesting, more like plain old 'haves' and 'have nots'. The have nots are unhappy about, as you say, the man sticking it to them

Its happened before, it'll happen again, I just hope not too many folk get hurt before it runs its course.

I doesn't help that the French admin appears to be insulting some of rioters by calling them scum and so forth.

I don't really think France can turn its back on the immigration issues here either, the downside to building empires is that the people you subjugate have a 'right' to come and live in your country, and the 'empire' has a duty to provide for them.

Not an easy spot to be in at all.

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[SkyDekker 1,465]

You mean I can't just blame the Muslims?

[Trent 0]

How ya been, Nac! Long time, huh?

Just one minor point... the fact that someone in their government is being blasted for calling people "scum" who are assaulting firefighters, EMTs, setting fires, attacking citizens, and being overall retards... confounds me. I suppose he should have just called them "disaffected youth from whom we could expect no less since it is all our fault anyway". The people doing the harm here ARE scum. I don't care what their reasons are, they have destroyed their cause by becoming violent.

I also have the feeling he may have used the word "racaille", which really means "riffraff". When I was in France, it was kind of a badge of honor to some of my friends that they were "racaille". I haven't seen the actual quote in french, but either way... these fuckers who are torching and destroying their OWN shit, in my opinion... are scum.

(for the terminally ignorant people here... that does not mean I think all french of n.african descent are scum)

Oh, hello again!

[ReBirth 0]

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Just one minor point... the fact that someone in their government is being blasted for calling people "scum" who are assaulting firefighters, EMTs, setting fires, attacking citizens, and being overall retards... confounds me.

I agree....but I think the issue is that he should have known that it would fuel the scum to call them for what they are. People in public positions need to watch what they say for their words can result in action by others. That's what he's being blasted for. Not for being insensitive to scum, rather for fueling the problem with his choice of words.

[Gawain 0]

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You mean I can't just blame the Muslims?

No, but in this case you may be able to blame the French.

On a more serious note, I would like to make a few observations:

It took more than a week for Chirac to declare a state of emergency. -- Incompetent

I heard a redio report (haven't double checked it yet) that riots started in a couple cities in Belgium and Germany. Anyone heard anything similar?

9500 police, in addition to ineffectual police on the street, across 300 cities and towns is not enough.

Only one death has been reported that I know of. I find that miraculous.

While France's accomodating immigration policy for those from Africa and the Middle East is admirable, their economy is not geared to handle such an influx of people. While there are several factors that contribute to these riots as being an inevitable event, and I consider the rioters themselves to be solely responsible, the French government and economy, not being "capitalistic" in nature, neither encourages or rewards personal initiative, which many immigrants to any country seem to possess in spades.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Trent 0]

I forgot to respond to this one....

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Good article in WSJ today about the influence of Muslim leaders in trying to STOP the violence by these independent rioters. Also goes on to talk about there will be bigger problems in the future because these leaders advocate a sub-culture of muslim society within western nations. But in the short term, as it relates to the current riots, the muslim community leaders are trying to stop the violence.

That's true as from what I've heard too... unfortunately, people in a situation like this will shop around until they hear the voice they agree with. You may have 100 clerics preaching calm, but one radical fuckwad will most likely get the people's attention since, clearly, they're not ready to stop the violence.

But let's hope that doesn't happen.

Oh, hello again!

[rehmwa 2]

If it does happen, do we worry that a nation will decide something is wrong with the current political setup and in the next election swing too far to the other side? It's happened before.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Trent 0]

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If it does happen, do we worry that a nation will decide something is wrong with the current political setup and in the next election swing too far to the other side? It's happened before.

Yeah, I forgot to put that in my last post. No matter what happens I think you'll see some extreme reaction in the next elections. From the side of the average French person, I think you'll see increased support for the FN, which is strongly anti-immigrant. On the other side, you might see a government more prone to appease the immigrant population since people don't want to have more riots. My feeling is that it'll swing to the FN's side a lot more since they were already pretty powerful there anyway.

Oh, hello again!

[Frenchy68 0]

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It took more than a week for Chirac to declare a state of emergency. -- Incompetent

The time it took for any reaction is indeed a shame. However, it wasn't Chirac's role to declare the state of emergency. French's institutions are very different in the US', in that the President is NOT the head of the government, the Prime Minister is. De Villepin (whom I respect a lot, but IMO has no business being PM) is the one who should have acted up on the events. Chirac stepped in because De Villepin and Sarkozy (Minister of the Interior) are too busy trying to take each other out of the next Presidential elections.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Frenchy68 0]

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If it does happen, do we worry that a nation will decide something is wrong with the current political setup and in the next election swing too far to the other side? It's happened before.

Yeah, I forgot to put that in my last post. No matter what happens I think you'll see some extreme reaction in the next elections. From the side of the average French person, I think you'll see increased support for the FN, which is strongly anti-immigrant. On the other side, you might see a government more prone to appease the immigrant population since people don't want to have more riots. My feeling is that it'll swing to the FN's side a lot more since they were already pretty powerful there anyway.

I'd tend to agree it will benefit the FN. However, since the Extreme right is as divided as the left right now, I doubt they will benefit much from it. Sarkozy, although he now comes across as being useless, will, I am afraid, come out as the big winner in these events.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[kelpdiver 2]

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It took more than a week for Chirac to declare a state of emergency. -- Incompetent

The time it took for any reaction is indeed a shame. However, it wasn't Chirac's role to declare the state of emergency. French's institutions are very different in the US', in that the President is NOT the head of the government, the Prime Minister is.

What's the point of having both a President and a Prime Minister?

After the heat wave last summer killed 10s of thousands in France, I thought there was something really messed up in the country, but then we had our pathetic showing in Louisianna.

[SudsyFist 0]

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After the heat wave last summer killed 10s of thousands in France, I thought there was something really messed up in the country, but then we had our pathetic showing in Louisianna.

So do you still think there is something really messed up in France, or does what happened in Louisiana negate that into acceptability and status quo?

[Frenchy68 0]

The President has certain well defined powers, but the day to day operation of the country is the government's responsability. The fact that you have 2 different entities with different sets of powers stems from the fact that the French President was elected for 7 years, and De Gaulle felt that should the majority in the French House of Representatives shift during that time, the government should reflect the shift in political power. Whether it's a good thing or not is another story.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[ReBirth 0]

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After the heat wave last summer killed 10s of thousands in France, I thought there was something really messed up in the country, but then we had our pathetic showing in Louisianna.

So do you still think there is something really messed up in France, or does what happened in Louisiana negate that into acceptability and status quo?

Well...Louisiana IS kind of like "France Lite".

[kelpdiver 2]

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So do you still think there is something really messed up in France, or does what happened in Louisiana negate that into acceptability and status quo?

I've downgraded France to 'merely' messed up, and pushed us in that direction. More points are lost for failing to deal with a longer duration threat.

[Wopelao 0]

Same can be said about GW, whose response was immediate after being asked by the Governor of LA.

[kallend 2,151]

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Same can be said about GW, whose response was immediate after being asked by the Governor of LA.

Pity the political hack he appointed to head FEMA was more concerned with his power tie and his appearance before the cameras than with taking action.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.