Senate Permits Oil Drilling in Alaska Refuge

[Channman 2]

>Enjoy your penny. Karma's a bitch.

I don't believe there is someone called Karma, never meet her. Rushmc comes across her thou, a good spanking my be in order.

[jumper03 0]

Quote

I think the future of US fuel lies elsewhere - methanol, ethanol, or most likely biodiesel.

agreed

Quote

This drilling is a very good thing, however.

disagree. I think the oil companies are in for a rude surprise as I don't think there is as much oil there as some geologists predict.

I could be wrong but I'm willing to bet they lose their lunch.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Channman 2]

>I could be wrong but I'm willing to bet they lose their lunch.

Think you will be wrong. Oil companies many years ago have done extensive core sampling and know what is waiting for them.

Black gold, Texas Tea, Jobs, progress hehehehe, and money, lots of money. And Federal and state goverenments will reap the world wind. Federal and state governments want have to risk a penny, dig a hole, refin. one product, or get one gallon of gas to market. But currently get .48 cents per gallon in taxes compared to the BIG OIL COMPANIES getting .10 cents profit per gallon.

And thats my .03 cents, and thats all I got to say about that.

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

And Federal and state goverenments will reap the world wind. Federal and state governments want have to risk a penny, dig a hole, refin. one product, or get one gallon of gas to market. But currently get .48 cents per gallon in taxes

First..to be pedantic...it's "whirl wind". Second...They'll get the .48 cents a gallon no matter where the oil comes from. Drilling here is not going to increase consumption or change it in anyway. There's no whirl wind, or world wind. No wind at all.

edit - should spell pedantic correctly when being it.

[billvon 3,116]

>Come to Minneapolis, you can live in the middle of town and still
>have deer in your backyard. And geese, etc.

Come to Barrow, Alaska, and see if you think the same thing. The tundra is a lot more fragile than Minneapolis, especially now that it's melting.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Just look at it as another case of the Govt. invoking "Emminent Domain".

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>Come to Barrow, Alaska, and see if you think the same thing. The tundra is a lot more fragile than Minneapolis, especially now that it's melting.

Minneapolis isn't melting

I thought you lived in Perris, not Barrow. my bad

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,116]

>I thought you lived in Perris, not Barrow. my bad

Neither one, actually. If I can find those Barrow pictures I will post them.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I spent seven years working the oil patch in the Canadian (and occasionally) American Beaufort Sea, just off shore from the refuge. I lived in Yukon during that time and have been watching this fight for over twenty years.
A few observations:
1. While it is true the oil in this patch cannot noticeably lower the world price of oil, neither can any other individual patch. What Americans need to remember is that Canadian, Saudi, or Venezuelan oil must be ultimately be purchased in the currency of that country (this despite the world oil market operating in US dollars). America's constant exporting of currency for energy is an ongoing threat to its economic and strategic security.
2. Some people have mentioned property rights and asked what the Alaskans want. The property belongs to the Federal Government of the United States; it is a national wildlife refuge. While the wishes of the locals are always important, it is not necessarily paramount. If the local real estate developers want to drain Everglades National Park or mining types want to 'provide jobs for the people of Wyoming' by open pit mining Yellowstone it does not necessarily follow that it is the right thing to do.
3. Speaking of locals, the Dene (Indian) of Old Crow as well as the Inuit from the area have lobbied against drilling for years. The nearest white man city is Fairbanks which is a long way away.
4. The 1.5 million acres in question is the main calving ground for the Porcupine caribou herd. Higher infant mortality rates from H2S exposure will without a doubt occur.
5. Ecological damage on the tundra tends to be long term (effectively permanent). When a vehicle leaves the road the tracks are visible from the air where the soft ground is squashed. These depressions lead the permafrost to melt, increasing the size of the ruts. The next year the process is repeated with the ruts increasing in size again as 'mini glaciers' fill the ruts. When they melt again in the summer they soften the land more, causing it to sink more, causing deeper permafrost to melt. It is quite stunning to be flying over the arctic and see the tracks that one vehicle made five or ten or twenty years ago.
The fact is the land does not recover ecologically the same way in the arctic as it does in more southern climes.
6. Fifteen years ago the environmental safeguards at Barrow were among the most stringent in the world. If the dept. of environment will keep the oil companies' noses to the wheel I think they can mitigate the damage to acceptable levels. That however, is a big if.
7. Major accidents in the Arctic need to be viewed like major nuclear accidents. If there is a major spill the area will not recover in our grandchildren's lifetime. The porcupine herd and/or the local beluga population may become extinct.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>I thought you lived in Perris, not Barrow. my bad

Neither one, actually. If I can find those Barrow pictures I will post them.

and I'll take some pictures to confirm if Minneapolis is melting or not - that and have a little tequila

Andrew -

1 - Is the porcupine caribou tasty
2 - don't worry about permafrost, global warming will fix that

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,116]

>5. Ecological damage on the tundra tends to be long term (effectively permanent).

One of the creepy things I saw up there was construction on a road and a pad for a building. It was raw dirt (mud actually) and looked like they had recently finished digging and soon would be starting on the asphalt. When I asked someone about it, they said "nope, they gave up on that five years ago." Things don't recover up there like they do in a pine forest, which is how I think people perceive that area.

Another problem that Barrow is having is that it's not ice-locked for much of the year now, and thus storms are starting to hit the town with waves and storm surges. They're losing coastline pretty fast, and are doing all the usual things to try to stop it (piling up dirt, putting up fences etc.)

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Andrew -

1 - Is the porcupine caribou tasty
2 - don't worry about permafrost, global warming will fix that

1- Not as good as elk but better than woodlands caribou. Did you know that reindeer and barrenlands caibou are the same animal. Care for a nice porterhouse Rudolph?
2- COMING SOON-Club Med Tuktoyaktuk.

[BikerBabe 0]

Thanks for the post.

So why not believe information from someone who lived and worked near the affected area?

Not so black and white now, is it?

I am sad that this was approved. I am sad that more people don't consider our environment (global as well as local) an important concern. It is shortsighted and naive to say "our energy needs now are more important." If our grandchildren aren't around to enjoy the effect of our so-called prosperity, then did we really benefit in the end?

Short-sightedness has always been the way of this administration, though, so I'm really not surprised.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

>storms are starting to hit the town with waves and storm surges. They're losing coastline pretty fast, and are doing all the usual things to try to stop it (piling up dirt, putting up fences etc.)

ahh the hearty Barrows' "never give up, never think things through" attitude

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Channman 2]

>"whirl wind"

I made a booboo.

[bodypilot90 0]

Quote

the eco-nuts will rage

All the more reason to drill

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

As far as Alaska, I'd like to hear what Alaskans want over anybody else in the nation that has no clue as to the local environment and need for jobs, etc.

Somehow, I think that if Mardy Murie were still alive, this thread wouldn't exist. Mardy grew up in Alaska and was the first woman to graduate from the University of Alaska, Fairbanks. This is some of what she has said on the subject:

"Wilderness itself is the basis of all our civilization. I wonder if we have enough reverence for life to concede to wilderness the right to live on?"

"Beauty is a resource in and of itself. Alaska must be allowed to be Alaska. That is her greatest economy. I hope the United States of America is not so rich that she can afford to let these wildernesses pass by. Or so poor, she cannot afford to keep them." - to Congress regarding ANWR.

"Alaska seemed too vast and wild ever to be changed, but now we are coming to realize how vulnerable this land is. I hope we have the sensitivity to protect Alaska's wilderness...""Do I dare to believe that one of my great-grandchildren may someday journey to the Sheenjek and still find the gray wolf trotting across the ice of Lobo Lake? Yes, I do still dare to believe!"

I really wish Mardy was here today to remind Congress to “allow Alaska to be different, to be herself, to nourish our souls.”

[Wopelao 0]

Quote

WOO HOOO!!! Now I we can justify driving flying in that big ol' pick-up truckskyvan I've been wanting to buy jump from

linz

Linz, I honestly think that all skydivers can't be morally right in the abuse of gas in this world....

[GTAVercetti 0]

Quote

Quote

WOO HOOO!!! Now I we can justify driving flying in that big ol' pick-up truckskyvan I've been wanting to buy jump from

linz

Linz, I honestly think that all skydivers can't be morally right in the abuse of gas in this world....

We cannot be morally right, no. But you can be damn sure I want the money and support being poured in by oil companies and tax payers (for subsidies to oil companies and premission for shit like this) to be used for LARGE SCALE research of alternative methods instead of the status quo.

Now, I have no say for the oil companies, but the government...well, I SHOULD have a say anyway.

Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing.

[Lindsey 0]

Quote

Quote

WOO HOOO!!! Now I we can justify driving flying in that big ol' pick-up truckskyvan I've been wanting to buy jump from

linz

Linz, I honestly think that all skydivers can't be morally right in the abuse of gas in this world....

In living by a strict moral code, ya' cheat yourself out of too much life....

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[lawrocket 3]

Quote

whatever....rape and pillage the earth for selfish needs. You guys obviously don't give a shit, so I'll just leave you to it. Hopefully your descendents aren't cursing todays short sigtedness because of their suffering.

It's so easy to write that from your computer (powered by something that destroys the environment) and beaming a signal through phone lines , using electrical lines, that are mounted on tree carcasses treated with a petroleum distillate to keep nature from ruining it.

Are you posting from a house or other structure that was built upon something that was once unspoiled by man? Do you have any pets whose ancestors were born free and once roamed the lands free of interference and obedience to man?

Does your diet contain anything that was grown on farms, where the wholesale importation on non-native flora and fauna lay waste to the natural landscape?

If so, it's rather nice to see someone who enjoys all of the fruits of laying waste to virgin land, but seeks to castigate others who may reap such rewards.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 3,116]

> it's rather nice to see someone who enjoys all of the fruits of laying
> waste to virgin land, but seeks to castigate others who may reap
> such rewards.

Right. Because the only two choices are rape the land until it can't support us, or be an ecofreak and kill yourself. There is no middle ground.

[lawrocket 3]

Sorry, bill. I'm in an asshole kinda mood today.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[ReBirth 0]

Quote

Sorry, bill. I'm in an asshole kinda mood today.

I guess you missed the part where I said I agree compromise is necessary between our needs and the environment...but this isn't one.

Oh, and when I leave my job using this computer....I'll be walking home.

Oh yeah....and I don't have any pets. And the majority of my diet, at least as much as is reasonably convenient considering the Trader Joes and Fresh Fields by my house, consists of environmentally friendly grown and raised foods.

I also donate generously to environemental causes such as rain forrest preservation.

There are people who do nothing and care not about the environment, there are people who do something to help it, and there are others who would willfully damage the environment because of short term greed. The last category is where I see the ANWR drilling project.

[Johnnyskydive 0]

Quote

I spent seven years working the oil patch in the Canadian (and occasionally) American Beaufort Sea, just off shore from the refuge. I lived in Yukon during that time and have been watching this fight for over twenty years.
A few observations:
1. While it is true the oil in this patch cannot noticeably lower the world price of oil, neither can any other individual patch. What Americans need to remember is that Canadian, Saudi, or Venezuelan oil must be ultimately be purchased in the currency of that country (this despite the world oil market operating in US dollars). America's constant exporting of currency for energy is an ongoing threat to its economic and strategic security.
2. Some people have mentioned property rights and asked what the Alaskans want. The property belongs to the Federal Government of the United States; it is a national wildlife refuge. While the wishes of the locals are always important, it is not necessarily paramount. If the local real estate developers want to drain Everglades National Park or mining types want to 'provide jobs for the people of Wyoming' by open pit mining Yellowstone it does not necessarily follow that it is the right thing to do.
3. Speaking of locals, the Dene (Indian) of Old Crow as well as the Inuit from the area have lobbied against drilling for years. The nearest white man city is Fairbanks which is a long way away.
4. The 1.5 million acres in question is the main calving ground for the Porcupine caribou herd. Higher infant mortality rates from H2S exposure will without a doubt occur.
5. Ecological damage on the tundra tends to be long term (effectively permanent). When a vehicle leaves the road the tracks are visible from the air where the soft ground is squashed. These depressions lead the permafrost to melt, increasing the size of the ruts. The next year the process is repeated with the ruts increasing in size again as 'mini glaciers' fill the ruts. When they melt again in the summer they soften the land more, causing it to sink more, causing deeper permafrost to melt. It is quite stunning to be flying over the arctic and see the tracks that one vehicle made five or ten or twenty years ago.
The fact is the land does not recover ecologically the same way in the arctic as it does in more southern climes.
6. Fifteen years ago the environmental safeguards at Barrow were among the most stringent in the world. If the dept. of environment will keep the oil companies' noses to the wheel I think they can mitigate the damage to acceptable levels. That however, is a big if.
7. Major accidents in the Arctic need to be viewed like major nuclear accidents. If there is a major spill the area will not recover in our grandchildren's lifetime. The porcupine herd and/or the local beluga population may become extinct.

Wow....that pretty much sums it up right there! Thanks for saying everything I wanted to and more.

I wonder if some people would stick to their argument, that we should do what the people of the region want. What if they didn't want us drilling for oil there? Would it be a different ball game then? Or are we only worried about what the NON natives of the area want? The people that have moved up there waiting for the drilling to start, I am sure they are fine with drilling the area. They can't wait for their jobs to start and the money to start coming in. While the real native people get the same shit they've been dealing with since the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock!

Johnny Skydive!